Paladin Protection
User avatar
EU Skullflame
Posts: 144
Likes: 5
Alliance
Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Linguine wrote:
3 months ago
killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
10- Holy Mightstone
Oh give me a break. Like this is realistic at all.

Furthermore, Skarm would have access to all his buffs if you did, including better debuffs on his bosses because of your waste of them on judgments.


Warrior Shouts, Hunter Pet, Resist/Devo Aura, Sanctity Aura, LotP or Moonkin Aura...

There aren't even enough spots to put all these people in your group.
4- Sanctity Aura - Ret Paladin in my Group needed
12- Crit Buff by group - Feral Druid
14- Hunter Pet Buff - Hunter
17- Warrior Shout - Warrior

In Total = 1 Ret Paladin + 1 Feral Druid + 1 Hunter + 1 Warrrior = 4 people.

Warrior access to all his buffs wont increase his threat compare to how much Paladin would do.
Especially when we bring into question Power Infusion and Innervates.

/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is Life
/Justice will prevails
Paladin Protection
User avatar
Posts: 94
Likes: 123
Human
Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Stfuppercut wrote:
3 months ago
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Please provide evidence that Prot Warrior is doing high amount of threat by not taking DMG!
Seriously. You and Skarm already had this discussion in the TC discord. You both went on the repack, you both did multiple TPS tests as offtanks and Skarm beat you hands down every time on threat.

You have already have this proven to you over and over. Why do you flat out deny it? What the fuck is wrong with you? You were given HARD evidence that Warriors produce more threat than a Paladin both when maintanking and offtanking and yet you have the audacity to sit here and demand evidence that this is the case when its already been proven to you.
I thought his posts seemed really weird... It was also strange that a new member came onboard with such a quantity of information supporting his claims on one subject. Fixated on one subject. He had a poorly constructed argument, but it also seemed to be an argument that he spent a lot of time constructing. He didn't seem to make any posts on any of the other topics. It would appear that he spends his time seeking this specific topic out (paladin tanking) and then begins spamming videos, often misrepresenting them or flat out lying about the context of the videos. It was also strange that he began to counter certain arguments before they were presented to him, as if he had this debate before.

Each and every time we offered specific criticisms, we would be spammed by an obnoxious wall of videos that failed to move the conversation forward because he would claim they were progressive raids while wearing gear that outmatched the content.

This is why I treated him like a child right out of the gate. I was pretty surprised that moderation stepped in and quoted me, when he was behaving so toxic, name calling, etc... Really terrible addition to the community to be honest. Calling people racists, and now projecting toxicity on everyone else... I am not a mental health professional but we might be dealing with something other than a passionate gamer. @Holyfrog definitely sheds a lot more context on @killerduki's past. This gives a lot more insight into what kind of person we are dealing with. It would be nice to go full circle and bring Skarm in on this conversation to have the cycle completed.
That's just what he does. You can google his name and find posts all over reddit, the official wow forums, youtube etc where the same pattern repeats itself for the past 5 or so years.

He makes some outlandish claim and backs them up with the same private server videos recorded on his channel.
When people point out flaws with his reasoning, and make counter points he immediately calls for them to prove that Paladins are not the best tanks, and to prove him wrong.
When people post evidence that does exactly this he discredits the source of the evidence, and eventually starts namecalling and insulting people until everyone get tired of debating.

The only reason I even made an accout on this forum is because it's become such a problem. The amount of misinformation about Paladin tanking all point towards the same source, Killerduki. Because he happened to somehow get a Thunderfury, he seems credible, and I have lost count of how many disappointed Paladins I have met on private servers that leveled to 60 expecting to tank raids only to realize the reality of Protpaladin does not match what they were sold and eventually quit the game.

I dont want the same to repeat itself for Classic. I love Protection as a spec. I think its fun, rewarding and I think it can work incredibly well for some content. But the reality is the spec just isnt there in terms of cutting edge performance, and it has issues both with the mechanics of the class and itemization that can be difficult to work around.

My only goal is to provide factual, balanced information about the spec so that people that want to try the spec know what they are getting into. I am just getting really tired of all this flat out denial of any problems a Paladin tank has and the refusal to accept that you will be a subpar choice for a tank.

Ultimately the tank role is very competitive. Any other memespec will only be taking a DPS slot which leads to some negligible slower clear time on the raid. A tank role however is so important to the success of any guild that having a suboptimal choice here can truly hurt a raid.
If someone is still willing to give it a go, the need to be aware that the spec has a much higher consume requirement, and requires a lot more time invested to perform at 80% of another tank and their guild should be aware that they need to accomodate the Paladin somewhat.

My hope is that by keep posting I can make potential Paladin players aware of the shortcomings of the class and perhaps paint a more realistic picture of the class than what Killerduki seem to do. Unfortunately it's not easy when this person have seemingly unlimited time to spew the same nonsense over and over and every corner of the web.

   Linguine Stfuppercut
Ashenvale
User avatar
Posts: 270
Likes: 160
Alliance
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Linguine wrote:
3 months ago
killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
10- Holy Mightstone
Oh give me a break. Like this is realistic at all.

Furthermore, Skarm would have access to all his buffs if you did, including better debuffs on his bosses because of your waste of them on judgments.


Warrior Shouts, Hunter Pet, Resist/Devo Aura, Sanctity Aura, LotP or Moonkin Aura...

There aren't even enough spots to put all these people in your group.
4- Sanctity Aura - Ret Paladin in my Group needed
12- Crit Buff by group - Feral Druid
14- Hunter Pet Buff - Hunter
17- Warrior Shout - Warrior

In Total = 1 Ret Paladin + 1 Feral Druid + 1 Hunter + 1 Warrrior = 4 people.

Warrior access to all his buffs wont increase his threat compare to how much Paladin would do.
Especially when we bring into question Power Infusion and Innervates.
You need your resist/devo aura Pally and Warlock for stam buff. This group comp is entirely unrealistic.

Westfall
User avatar
Posts: 36
Likes: 18
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
Psojed wrote:
3 months ago
From the cooldowns point of view, all tanks are limited by the global cooldown for using their abilities. But Consecration has 8 second duration, Holy Shield generates threat on blocks and also has duration, Seal has a duration. So the only ability that is really affected by the cooldown in terms of TPS is Judgement, and Judgement isn't affected by GCD.

This brings us to the major difference in threat generation. Warrior and Druid can only generate Threat from autoattack and using one ability at a time. You can't be using for example Sunder Armor and Shield Slam both at the same moment. So you're trying to spend all your Rage as fast as you can, but you're limited by GCD (and your ability to generate Rage).
Well no, because when a Warrior starts tanking in preraid blue gear they will not be generating enough rage to use an ability every GCD. As gear progresses, you get more rage generation which increases the frequency of your abilities. At later stages you also start incorporating more Heroic Strikes into your rotation as replacementes for white hits.
You're just repeating what I said. Bolded for ya.

Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
A Paladin will never be able to increase the frequency of which you get to use your abilities. That is the main difference.
I see. So Paladin starts at max speed rotation, while Warrior starts out slow, because of not enough rage. That's the main difference.

Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
Psojed wrote:
3 months ago
Ok, please explain why you don't want JoW?
You are limited to 16 debuff slots in Vanilla. This means that while Judgement of Wisdom is required for a Protection Paladin to keep up the threat rotation, it's uneccessary for the vast majority of content, as caster DPS already have the tools to sustain their mana through longer encounters by using abilities such as Evocation, Mana Gems, Life Tap or even Feigndeath+Drink.

Bringing a Paladin tank means that instead of using say, Gift of Arthas to increase every melee hit done by anyone in the raid by 8 damage, you are now spending the debuff slot to support the Protection Paladin.
Good! So we must not use Judgement of Wisdom to allow a debuff on the boss. So what else takes up our slots? Let's say we're just entering MC:
  1. Curse of Shadow
  2. Curse of Elements
  3. Curse of Recklessness
  4. Winter’s Chill
  5. Sunder Armor
  6. Faerie Fire
  7. Improved Shadow Bolt
  8. Gift of Arthas
  9. Judgement of Crusader
  10. Shadow Weaving
  11. Demoralizing Shout
  12. ?
  13. ?
  14. ?
  15. ?
  16. ?
  17. ?
I think we still have enough free slots to use JoW. :wink:

Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
Did you actually watch the video? It's 2 minute 40 second kill. That is incredibly slow even for 2006 standards. Duki is playing with some of the worst DPS I have ever seen, and this is used as evidence that Prot Paladins can hold aggro. You can look at the DPS meter and divide the difference in damage before and after the boss by 163 seconds (length of the boss)
Oh, so the DPS was weak! So that means the Paladin must have ran into mana issues!
Oh wait! He was able to tank WITHOUT Judgement of Wisdom and WITHOUT using a mana pot for 2 minutes and 40 seconds? Well well, how is that possible when in your test run video on the GM island, you ran out of mana after 1 minute 20 seconds + using a potion + using a rune???



Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
The Fury Warrior f.ex is doing 270 DPS. You have any idea how dogshit this is? Warriors in preraid should be pulling 500-600+ DPS easily.
Oh then this person must also be a pretty bad warrior since he can't reach 500 DPS in pre-raid gear. Or you're just pulling random numbers out of your sleeve :wink:


Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
As for Exorcism in Naxx. I assumed it was pretty well understood that DPS starts doing more DPS once they get AQ40 and Naxx gear. When DPS starts to produce higher damage, the tank has to produce more TPS to compensate. Thus you need Exorcism.
Oh I see! So the DPSers cannot produce enough DPS in AQ40 and the Tankadin doesn't require to generate threat from another source. But when the same DPS moves to Naxx, suddenly they CAN produce enough DPS and the Tankadin DOES require another source of threat! Now it all makes sense :lol:

Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
Who told you the general consensus is that Paladins do good threat? You are being just as dishonest as Duki. You flip it around and pretend as if I am the one that has to provide evidence when we have 15 years of raidlogs to look back on where not a single person can demonstrate Paladins produce the level of threat a Warrior can do.

The burden of proof is on you.
Still, I'd love to see those 15 years of raidlogs of yours first. To look back, y'know.

Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
What are you talking about? Dualwield is entire irrelevant here.
Well then don't bring it up :lol:

---

These parroted "everyone already knows" fallacies are really getting old.

   killerduki
Ashenvale
User avatar
Posts: 270
Likes: 160
Alliance
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

@Holyfrog I think it is very noble of you to do this for the Paladin community, and hope your efforts are successful in helping others find their way to whatever will be most enjoyable for them.

I feel the same way about Druid. I know people who felt like gods in Cata and think it'll be the same in classic. Just like prot pally, it can still be a very fun class, but it is often very different than what people think they're getting into.

   Stfuppercut Holyfrog
Paladin Protection
User avatar
EU Skullflame
Posts: 144
Likes: 5
Alliance
Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
He makes some outlandish claim and backs them up with the same private server videos recorded on his channel.
And what your claims been so far ?

Skarm = popular and famous Private Server hero!
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
The amount of misinformation about Paladin tanking all point towards the same source, Killerduki.
And what sources and evidence you brought so far? I've seen none so far.
Please give us and provide us any.
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
My only goal is to provide factual, balanced information about the spec so that people that want to try the spec know what they are getting into.
So far you brought 0 information about the spec which is backed up with Sources and Evidence.
Contrary to what i bring all the time = Videos , Sources = Evidence!
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
, the need to be aware that the spec has a much higher consume requirement,
Still you repeat something which already has proven you wrong , return back to last few Psojed posts which you ignoring purposely.
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
My hope is that by keep posting I can make potential Paladin players aware of the shortcomings of the class and perhaps paint a more realistic picture of the class than what Killerduki seem to do. Unfortunately it's not easy when this person have seemingly unlimited time to spew the same nonsense over and over and every corner of the web.
Like you have done any Main Tanking in order to prove such "shortcomings" of the class ?!

Oh shit , wait a minute = i don't see any of them done by you so far, just "words".

I still wait for your Ignorant respond regarding what you already ignored :
killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
On lvl 1 target Dummy where Warrior is not being affected by :

1- Armor
2- Glancing Blows
3- Avoidance by Target

Obviously why do you think he Refuses to do the same on a Raid Target Dummy?!

He beat me for 50 TPS difference against lvl 1 target Dummy on full BiS Gear and that without :

4- Sanctity Aura
5- All 3 Judgements at once
6- Exorcism
7- Parry Haste
8- Innervates
9- Power Infusion
10- Holy Mightstone
11- Holy Water
12- Crit Buff by group.
13- World Buffs (all of them)
14- Hunter Pet Buff
15- Blessing of Might
16- Blessing of King
17- Warrior Shouts

Only because his threat got highly boosted by Block Value from Sapphiron Trinket , doesn't mean that "Weapon would have made him do such big amount of threat if there was no Sapphiron Trinket using by him" .

You know how big difference is going to be when such things are added to the list?!
BIG for Paladin!

/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is Life
/Justice will prevails
Paladin Protection
User avatar
EU Skullflame
Posts: 144
Likes: 5
Alliance
Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Linguine wrote:
3 months ago
You need your resist/devo aura Pally and Warlock for stam buff. This group comp is entirely unrealistic.
My Aura can be "ANYTHING" Resist or Devo , has nothing to do with the Group , and to put Warlock i would thrown Feral Druid out of the Group , the Group there was for Threat Purpose.

/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is Life
/Justice will prevails
Ashenvale
User avatar
Posts: 270
Likes: 160
Alliance
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Psojed wrote:
3 months ago
Good! So we must not use Judgement of Wisdom to allow a debuff on the boss. So what else takes up our slots? Let's say we're just entering MC:
Curse of Shadow
Curse of Elements
Curse of Recklessness
Winter’s Chill
Sunder Armor
Faerie Fire
Improved Shadow Bolt
Gift of Arthas
Judgement of Crusader
Shadow Weaving
Demoralizing Shout
?
?
?
?
?
?
I think we still have enough free slots to use JoW.
Off the top of my head: Missing Hunter's Mark, 1-2 Corruptions (SM/Ruin Warlocks), Mind Flay (If it is a dedicated Shadow Priest and not a mixed one), Thunderclap, Annihilator, Judgement of Light...

Nightfall will be added ASAP. Eventually with 8/8 T2 Hunter takes up another debuff slot. Thunderfury, ideally in its eventuality, takes up a slot.

In AQ Winter's chill becomes two debuffs: Imp. Scorch and Ignite.

Some of the videos we've seen had three JoW's on the boss, also another thing to keep in mind.

Paladin Protection
User avatar
Posts: 94
Likes: 123
Human
Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
Seriously. You and Skarm already had this discussion in the TC discord. You both went on the repack, you both did multiple TPS tests as offtanks and Skarm beat you hands down every time on threat.
On lvl 1 target Dummy where Warrior is not being affected by :

1- Armor
2- Glancing Blows
3- Avoidance by Target

Obviously why do you think he Refuses to do the same on a Raid Target Dummy?!

Those were YOUR conditions for the test.

Here's the two videos if anyone wish to compare them themselves. Note the differences in Buffs. Especially the Flask of Supreme Power.




Obviously why do you think he Refuses to do the same on a Raid Target Dummy?!
I believe he just asked you to look up his raidlogs and look there because a dummy test where you constantly changed the conditions of the test whenever they were not in your favor was a waste of time.

   Linguine Stfuppercut
Ashenvale
User avatar
Posts: 270
Likes: 160
Alliance
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
Note the differences in Buffs. Especially the Flask of Supreme Power.
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=15852 ... eath-chili sighted with https://classic.wowhead.com/item=21546/ ... -firepower applied to increase its damage.

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=9264/e ... adow-power for https://classic.wowhead.com/item=3824/shadow-oil
(Leaves him unable to use https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20748/ ... t-mana-oil)

What is the buff that looks like https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=18194 ... generation ? Did he give himself some sort of Totem Buff? Not seeing anything it could realistically be here. Maybe he gave himself https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10767/rising-spirit - a Horde Only (I believe?) Barrens buff that lasts 30 minutes. Even if Alliance could get it, it's in the BARRENS inside Camp Taurajo! Neither realistic nor possible.


EDIT: Just to note, the https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13512/ ... reme-power also boosts the Chili and Shadow Oil. This guy has a ridiculous amount of buffs and synergy between them just to still short of Skarm wearing standard raid buffs.

Paladin Protection
User avatar
Posts: 94
Likes: 123
Human
Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Psojed wrote:
3 months ago
Holyfrog wrote: ↑1 hour ago
Did you actually watch the video? It's 2 minute 40 second kill. That is incredibly slow even for 2006 standards. Duki is playing with some of the worst DPS I have ever seen, and this is used as evidence that Prot Paladins can hold aggro. You can look at the DPS meter and divide the difference in damage before and after the boss by 163 seconds (length of the boss)
Oh, so the DPS was weak! So that means the Paladin must have ran into mana issues!
Oh wait! He was able to tank WITHOUT Judgement of Wisdom and WITHOUT using a mana pot for 2 minutes and 40 seconds? Well well, how is that possible when in your test run video on the GM island, you ran out of mana after 1 minute 20 seconds + using a potion + using a rune???
Because Killerduki was not using, nor did he need to use, a proper threat rotation. He did not need a Mana pot simply because he was so far ahead of threat from have aweful DPS. This is not a good representation of an actual raid.
Psojed wrote:
3 months ago
Oh then this person must also be a pretty bad warrior since he can't reach 500 DPS in pre-raid gear. Or you're just pulling random numbers out of your sleeve
This person is doing 70% more DPS than the Warrior in Duki's raid. My point was that Duki's raid has very low DPS, and this video of yours proves it. Sadly you chose to focus on the exact DPS figure I gave you, and then probably went to youtube to look at a bunch of videos until you found one that gave a different number from mine while missing the point I was making by a mile.

The warrior in your video did 488 DPS btw. You really dont think it's possible to squeeze in another 12 DPS by more practice on the rotation? We also have no idea about the exact buffs and debuffs used in the video so we cant know if they are entirely optimal.
The tests are also done on Patchwerk which is set to a notoriously high armor value on private servers compared to any other boss in the game. This further reduce the damage done.
Additionally this test lasted longer than the average MC/BWL boss encounter meaning DPS gets lowered as cooldowns like Death Wish and trinkets is up for a lower percentage of the fight. There's also no execute phase which would be something like 20% more DPS, resulting in a total DPS of 585+. Probably well over 600 when you consider the high armor of Patchwerk.

You are doing exactly what Duki does. You are cherry picking examples to win an argument, rather than focusing on actually learning something.
Psojed wrote:
3 months ago
Still, I'd love to see those 15 years of raidlogs of yours first. To look back, y'know.
https://legacyplayers.com/

I also never said they were my own logs.
Psojed wrote:
3 months ago
Holyfrog wrote: ↑1 hour ago
As for Exorcism in Naxx. I assumed it was pretty well understood that DPS starts doing more DPS once they get AQ40 and Naxx gear. When DPS starts to produce higher damage, the tank has to produce more TPS to compensate. Thus you need Exorcism.
Oh I see! So the DPSers cannot produce enough DPS in AQ40 and the Tankadin doesn't require to generate threat from another source. But when the same DPS moves to Naxx, suddenly they CAN produce enough DPS and the Tankadin DOES require another source of threat! Now it all makes sense
Yes, DPS do more damage when they get better gear. Imagine that. Fucking idiot.
Psojed wrote:
3 months ago
Holyfrog wrote: ↑1 hour ago
What are you talking about? Dualwield is entire irrelevant here.
Well then don't bring it up
It was not irrelevant to the point I was making in the post you originally replied to. Dualwield WAS however irrelevant in the context of the point you were trying to make as a response.
You strike me as the kind of person that just want to provoke and get a reaction out of people because you keep nitpicking on details of my post while going out of your way to intentionally misunderstand anything I say. You have no actual interest in debating anything, and you keep using emoticons such as :lol: to try and ridicule me as a person rather than construct arguments against the points I am trying to make. This is the kind of behaviour people usually grow out of by the time they leave preschool.

I will consider you a troll from this point on and will simply ignore your posts.

   Linguine Roadblock
Paladin Protection
User avatar
EU Skullflame
Posts: 144
Likes: 5
Alliance
Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
Seriously. You and Skarm already had this discussion in the TC discord. You both went on the repack, you both did multiple TPS tests as offtanks and Skarm beat you hands down every time on threat.
On lvl 1 target Dummy where Warrior is not being affected by :

1- Armor
2- Glancing Blows
3- Avoidance by Target

Obviously why do you think he Refuses to do the same on a Raid Target Dummy?!

Those were YOUR conditions for the test.

Here's the two videos if anyone wish to compare them themselves. Note the differences in Buffs. Especially the Flask of Supreme Power.




Obviously why do you think he Refuses to do the same on a Raid Target Dummy?!
I believe he just asked you to look up his raidlogs and look there because a dummy test where you constantly changed the conditions of the test whenever they were not in your favor was a waste of time.
within 7 Minutes 57 seconds = I did 303k threat , he did 340k threat.

636 TPS by me vs 710 TPS by him on lvl 1 Target Dummy = 74 TPS.

On lvl 1 target Dummy where Warrior is not being affected by :

1- Armor
2- Glancing Blows
3- Avoidance by Target

Obviously why do you think he Refuses to do the same on a Raid Target Dummy?!

Beat me for 74 TPS difference against lvl 1 target Dummy on full BiS Gear and that without :

4- Sanctity Aura
5- All 3 Judgements at once
6- Exorcism
7- Parry Haste
8- Innervates
9- Power Infusion
10- Holy Mightstone
11- Holy Water
12- Crit Buff by group.
13- World Buffs (all of them)
14- Hunter Pet Buff
15- Blessing of Might
16- Blessing of King
17- Warrior Shouts

Only because his threat got highly boosted by Block Value from Sapphiron Trinket , doesn't mean that "Weapon would have made him do such big amount of threat if there was no Sapphiron Trinket using by him" .

You know how big difference is going to be when such things are added to the list?!
BIG for Paladin!
I believe he just asked you to look up his raidlogs and look there because a dummy test where you constantly changed the conditions of the test whenever they were not in your favor was a waste of time.
Nobody changed conditions of the test , it was asked to do on lvl 1 and on Raid lvl target Dummy , because Raid lvl target Dummy are going to be huge NERF for Warrior tanks compare to lvl 1 Dummy!

And as for "His Raid Logs" request , the tests was never done with :

1- Holy Shield
2- Retribution Aura
3- Blessing of Sanctuary
4- Sanctity Aura
5- All 3 Judgements at once
6- Exorcism
7- Parry Haste
8- Innervates
9- Power Infusion
10- Holy Mightstone
11- Holy Water
12- Crit Buff by group.
13- World Buffs (all of them)
14- Hunter Pet Buff
15- Blessing of Might
16- Blessing of King
17- Warrior Shouts

Did you know that with all of these (perhaps i missed some) , you can certainly improve threat 2-3 times higher than this threat on sitting target Dummy?!
Those were YOUR conditions for the test.


My conditions for the test was to do the test on both lvl 1 and Raid target where the difference is going to be huge.
While he did the lvl 1, he refused and ignoring to do it on a Raid target only because it doesn't match or suit for his propaganda.

/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is Life
/Justice will prevails
Ashenvale
User avatar
Posts: 270
Likes: 160
Alliance
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
within 7 Minutes 57 seconds = I did 303k threat , he did 340k threat.
Linguine wrote:
3 months ago
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
Note the differences in Buffs. Especially the Flask of Supreme Power.
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=15852 ... eath-chili sighted with https://classic.wowhead.com/item=21546/ ... -firepower applied to increase its damage.

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=9264/e ... adow-power for https://classic.wowhead.com/item=3824/shadow-oil
(Leaves him unable to use https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20748/ ... t-mana-oil)

What is the buff that looks like https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=18194 ... generation ? Did he give himself some sort of Totem Buff? Not seeing anything it could realistically be here. Maybe he gave himself https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10767/rising-spirit - a Horde Only (I believe?) Barrens buff that lasts 30 minutes. Even if Alliance could get it, it's in the BARRENS inside Camp Taurajo!

You got so creative with your buffs already that you went and took some from the Horde! (https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10767/rising-spirit) I don't think you need any more tests considering Skarm could have done the same cheesy thing with Dragonbreath Chili that you did. The Flask boosted both that and Shadow oil too.

Paladin Protection
User avatar
Posts: 94
Likes: 123
Human
Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Only because his threat got highly boosted by Block Value from Sapphiron Trinket , doesn't mean that "Weapon would have made him do such big amount of threat if there was no Sapphiron Trinket using by him" .
And you specifically requested he did not dualwield. You also imposed restrictions on buffs and debuffs while you were wearing a Flask of Supreme Power yourself.
killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Nobody changed conditions of the test , it was asked to do on lvl 1 and on Raid lvl target Dummy , because Raid lvl target Dummy are going to be huge NERF for Warrior tanks compare to lvl 1 Dummy!
See the above quote.

   Linguine Xaldron
Paladin Protection
User avatar
EU Skullflame
Posts: 144
Likes: 5
Alliance
Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
Because Killerduki was not using, nor did he need to use, a proper threat rotation. He did not need a Mana pot simply because he was so far ahead of threat from have aweful DPS.
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
This person is doing 70% more DPS than the Warrior in Duki's raid. My point was that Duki's raid has very low DPS, and this video of yours proves it. Sadly you chose to focus on the exact DPS figure I gave you, and then probably went to youtube to look at a bunch of videos until you found one that gave a different number from mine while missing the point I was making by a mile.
Aweful DPS on Pre Raid Gear who was receiving Fears by Magmadar and had to run away from Fire constantly , not a "Static" Tank/Spank fight.

Nice cherry picking cheap shots.
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
https://legacyplayers.com/

I also never said they were my own logs.
So long from your 15 years raid logs , when you provide Logs from past 3 Years in a Private Servers, where today majority of Protection Paladins are in denial of Raiding thanks to those who spill lies and missinformation like you....
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
It was not irrelevant to the point I was making in the post you originally replied to. Dualwield WAS however irrelevant in the context of the point you were trying to make as a response.
But you still resurrecting it when it comes toward a fact in order to justify your own propaganda , like the last post you did where you pointed out my Supreme Power Flask.
You strike me as the kind of person that just want to provoke and get a reaction out of people because you keep nitpicking on details of my post while going out of your way to intentionally misunderstand anything I say. You have no actual interest in debating anything, and you keep using emoticons such as :lol: to try and ridicule me as a person rather than construct arguments against the points I am trying to make. This is the kind of behaviour people usually grow out of by the time they leave preschool.

I will consider you a troll from this point on and will simply ignore your posts.
Speaking this for yourself seems .
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
And you specifically requested he did not dualwield. You also imposed restrictions on buffs and debuffs while you were wearing a Flask of Supreme Power yourself.
I never imposed restrictions on buffs and debuffs , you are putting your own words in my mouth .
Re read the Discord Chat and see that on your own!

It has been said on "Personal Buffs/Debuffs" with Consumes.

But that doesn't image the whole situation , especially NOT when Raid target is in question and not lvl 1.

/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is Life
/Justice will prevails
Ashenvale
User avatar
Posts: 270
Likes: 160
Alliance
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
Because Killerduki was not using, nor did he need to use, a proper threat rotation. He did not need a Mana pot simply because he was so far ahead of threat from have aweful DPS.
Aweful DPS on Pre Raid Gear who was receiving Fears by Magmadar and had to run away from Fire constantly , not a "Static" Tank/Spank fight.

Nice cheap shots.
Pre-raid gear.... as you wear https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19019/ ... windseeker and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard ... no. This lie is getting old. Neither you nor your raid is wearing pre-raid gear in the Magmadar Video.

   Xaldron Stfuppercut
Paladin Protection
User avatar
EU Skullflame
Posts: 144
Likes: 5
Alliance
Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Linguine wrote:
3 months ago
killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
Because Killerduki was not using, nor did he need to use, a proper threat rotation. He did not need a Mana pot simply because he was so far ahead of threat from have aweful DPS.
Aweful DPS on Pre Raid Gear who was receiving Fears by Magmadar and had to run away from Fire constantly , not a "Static" Tank/Spank fight.

Nice cheap shots.
Pre-raid gear.... as you wear https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19019/ ... windseeker and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard ... no.
I am talking about the Group DPS, not about me.

/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is Life
/Justice will prevails
Ashenvale
User avatar
Posts: 270
Likes: 160
Alliance
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Linguine wrote:
3 months ago
killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
Because Killerduki was not using, nor did he need to use, a proper threat rotation. He did not need a Mana pot simply because he was so far ahead of threat from have aweful DPS.
Aweful DPS on Pre Raid Gear who was receiving Fears by Magmadar and had to run away from Fire constantly , not a "Static" Tank/Spank fight.

Nice cheap shots.
Pre-raid gear.... as you wear https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19019/ ... windseeker and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard ... no.
I am talking about the Group DPS, not about me.

Though they are obscured much in the video, I can still see https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18608/benediction and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19864/bloodcaller easily. I could scour the video and come up with more, but I already know pre-raid BiS is a lie.

   Xaldron Stfuppercut
Paladin Protection
User avatar
Posts: 94
Likes: 123
Human
Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
Because Killerduki was not using, nor did he need to use, a proper threat rotation. He did not need a Mana pot simply because he was so far ahead of threat from have aweful DPS.
Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
This person is doing 70% more DPS than the Warrior in Duki's raid. My point was that Duki's raid has very low DPS, and this video of yours proves it. Sadly you chose to focus on the exact DPS figure I gave you, and then probably went to youtube to look at a bunch of videos until you found one that gave a different number from mine while missing the point I was making by a mile.
Aweful DPS on Pre Raid Gear who was receiving Fears by Magmadar and had to run away from Fire constantly , not a "Static" Tank/Spank fight.

Nice cheap shots.
If only Warriors had some kind of ability that breaks fears. Maybe we can call them Death Wish and Berserker Rage. It would also be great if Magmadar's fear was considered a magic effect and could be dispelled instantly by healers.

Oh wait!

It's also not relevant what caused your raid to have low DPS. The fact is the raid did have low DPS, and this is the reason for why you were able to tank the boss without using Mana Pots and Runes. This is also the point that keeps getting ignored because engaging in it would mean admitting there are flaws with the Paladin class as tanks.

   Linguine Xaldron
Warrior Fury
User avatar
US Fairbanks
Posts: 1073
Likes: 716
Gnome
Warrior
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

@killerduki they are starting to make some headway in the conversation... QUICKLY distract everyone with a wall of spam and more videos to make the thread more convoluted and challenging to navigate! Do full quotes without pinpointing which parts of their posts you are responding to! Create a wave of text!!!! No a tsunami of text by spam quoting! Perhaps you could distract everyone by calling us noobs and pricks! Better yet, disregard the progress in the conversation and restate your previous points without acknowledging any criticisms that were previously made! The walls are closing in, you dont have much time left! Racism... Racists. YOURE ALL RACISTS!

   Xaldron Linguine Holyfrog Samaraner
Ironforge
User avatar
Posts: 49
Likes: 24
Dwarf
Warrior
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Skipping all your huge creative walls of text after this statement, @Killerduki. I just want to address it first:

Why the hell am i going to spam Consecration which bad threat against Single Target?! ...
1) Consecration will use the same amount of mana no matter how many targets affected
2) Earlier you posted a video where you fight one single mob, "proving", that you can cast consecration on every cooldown without running oom.

Your question is ridiculous as it was not an issue in your own video, nor does it change the fact that using consecration on every cooldown will run you oom.

According to your claims that you can spam consecration on every cooldown without running oom. Why wouldn't you want to use it on a single target as well? It causes holy damage which we both know is where most of your threat is generated from, due to righteous fury. And even though, as you point out, it doesn't cause much single target threat, why wouldn't you still generate that threat, small as it is, if it doesn't run you oom?

Then you'd probably say that for the single target you would use SoR instead of SoW. Still, you have based your arguments on paladins not having mana issues on their access to SoW.
May I point out; paladin tanks mana issue does not only stem from the use of consecration. On a single target raid boss, you will still run out of mana eventually spamming SoR/JoR. That is unless, you prepare for the fight with runes, mana pots, and other consumables. In this case making you dependent on consumables or enablers (like druids wasting innervate on you).

   Linguine Stfuppercut Holyfrog
Expect the worst. Hope for the best.
Ironforge
User avatar
Posts: 49
Likes: 24
Dwarf
Warrior
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Stfuppercut wrote:
3 months ago
@killerduki they are starting to make some headway in the conversation... QUICKLY distract everyone with a wall of spam and more videos to make the thread more convoluted and challenging to navigate! Do full quotes without pinpointing which parts of their posts you are responding to! Create a wave of text!!!! No a tsunami of text by spam quoting! Perhaps you could distract everyone by calling us noobs and pricks! Better yet, disregard the progress in the conversation and restate your previous points without acknowledging any criticisms that were previously made! The walls are closing in, you dont have much time left! Racism... Racists. YOURE ALL RACISTS!
Ahahahaha, omg, I laughed so hard I splurted out my drink xD

   Stfuppercut Tewi
Expect the worst. Hope for the best.
Paladin Protection
User avatar
Posts: 94
Likes: 123
Human
Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
I never imposed restrictions on buffs and debuffs , you are putting your own words in my mouth .
Re read the Discord Chat and see that on your own!

It has been said on "Personal Buffs/Debuffs" with Consumes.

But that doesn't image the whole situation , especially NOT when Raid target is in question and not lvl 1.
Normally I wouldnt link to a discord like this, but since you personally requested I looked through the Discord, I went ahead and did just that.
SpoilerShow
Image
***
Image
***
Image

   Linguine Stfuppercut Xaldron Rinkusan Roadblock Tewi Samaraner
Ashenvale
User avatar
Posts: 270
Likes: 160
Alliance
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
I never imposed restrictions on buffs and debuffs , you are putting your own words in my mouth .
Re read the Discord Chat and see that on your own!

It has been said on "Personal Buffs/Debuffs" with Consumes.

But that doesn't image the whole situation , especially NOT when Raid target is in question and not lvl 1.
Normally I wouldnt link to a discord like this, but since you personally requested I looked through the Discord, I went ahead and did just that.
SpoilerShow
Image
***
Image
***
Image
MPV hero of the thread.

   Stfuppercut Xaldron
Warrior Fury
User avatar
US Fairbanks
Posts: 1073
Likes: 716
Gnome
Warrior
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

@Holyfrog is the MvP! After the storm settles, you should stick around frog.

   Linguine Xaldron
Similar topics
to 'Serious Disscussion on Paladin Tanking.'
Posts ViewsLast post