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Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
Also for @Linguine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of ... hilosophy)
When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo.
I believe we can all agree that the standard, or the status quo, is NOT chugging manapots on cooldown. You have just claimed that Paladins need to chug manapots to be able to generate a standard threat rotation. That is why this is your claim to prove.

No, Psojed, the status quo is not specifically about mana pots, nor is your position the status quo. The status quo is that Warrior tanks (and Druids) are far superior than Paladin tanks for having an unlimited resource and various other strong abilities, gear, etc. Not needing mana pots is simply part of the package.

You, as the challenger to this with the idea that Paladins also have an unlimited (rather, that they are not limited by their resource) are the one that needs to back up your claim as well as any other claims that break the status quo, which is just about all of them.

You can easily view the status quo by looking at how many Warriors are the Main Tanks of their guilds and raids.

We are both making claims here, but mine is backed by the standard knowledge and consensus of players in WoW.

Status Quo: the existing state of affairs, especially regarding social or political issues.

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Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
About holding threat... You remember the Magmadar video being thrown around a lot? There's no JoW, and there's no mana potion used, yet he held threat. How is that possible?
About Exorcism in your rotation... So a Paladin is able to maintank MC, BWL and AQ40, but not Naxxramas unless he starts using Exorcism, correct? :lol:
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
You are not thinking about this the right way. Paladins require Mana Potions just to produce their regular standard threat rotation.
No, they don't. It's been shown in the Magmadar video.
Please link the Magmadar Video if you're going to hold to it so tightly.

He is wearing https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19019/ ... windseeker and AQ gear among other things and I think we can fill in the rest about what happened here on one of the earliest bosses in the game.

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Heh. Learn to read I guess? I specifically mention the claim about the requirement of chugging mana pots. It's written in the very part of the post you quoted @Linguine. It doesn't mention Warriors or Druids in any way.

   killerduki
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Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
From the cooldowns point of view, all tanks are limited by the global cooldown for using their abilities. But Consecration has 8 second duration, Holy Shield generates threat on blocks and also has duration, Seal has a duration. So the only ability that is really affected by the cooldown in terms of TPS is Judgement, and Judgement isn't affected by GCD.

This brings us to the major difference in threat generation. Warrior and Druid can only generate Threat from autoattack and using one ability at a time. You can't be using for example Sunder Armor and Shield Slam both at the same moment. So you're trying to spend all your Rage as fast as you can, but you're limited by GCD (and your ability to generate Rage).
Well no, because when a Warrior starts tanking in preraid blue gear they will not be generating enough rage to use an ability every GCD. As gear progresses, you get more rage generation which increases the frequency of your abilities. At later stages you also start incorporating more Heroic Strikes into your rotation as replacementes for white hits.
A Paladin will never be able to increase the frequency of which you get to use your abilities. That is the main difference.

Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
Holyfrog wrote: ↑5 hours ago
There's some bosses you dont want Judgement of Wisdom. Especially in MC and BWL there's barely any fights apart from Nef where you would want one. You also cannot rely on a Holy Paladin always being able to keep up the Judgement.
I agree with you a Retpala is great to have in the group of the Protpala, but it's a huge obvious disadvantage regardless. Instead of your tank group being Tank, Tank, Tank, Warlock, Paladin, you now need two tank groups so the Paladin tank can get both Sanctity Aura, Devotion Aura and Blood Pact.
Ok, please explain why you don't want JoW?
You are limited to 16 debuff slots in Vanilla. This means that while Judgement of Wisdom is required for a Protection Paladin to keep up the threat rotation, it's uneccessary for the vast majority of content, as caster DPS already have the tools to sustain their mana through longer encounters by using abilities such as Evocation, Mana Gems, Life Tap or even Feigndeath+Drink.

Bringing a Paladin tank means that instead of using say, Gift of Arthas to increase every melee hit done by anyone in the raid by 8 damage, you are now spending the debuff slot to support the Protection Paladin.

Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
Ok, count with me. You have 3 tanks, 1 paladin, 1 warlock.
1 tank = Protadin, using Devotion aura.
2 tanks are Warriors.
Paladin is ret, giving Sanctity.
Warlock is warlock as usual. 1 + 2 + 1 +1 = 5, one group, no special needs. All tanks get stamina from imp and Devo aura. Where's the problem?
No, the one Paladin will be Holy to provide Devotion Aura or Fire Resistance aura depending on the encounter. The Protection Paladin also want Sanctity Aura for the 10% increase to Holy Damage which means you are now forced to get two Paladins in the same group as the Protection Paladin as support. This means the tank group can no longer support all three tanks you want to be using for the raid, and you need to make two dedicated tank groups to make the Paladin have all the required tank buffs.

Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
Who says prot needs ret aura?
Ret Aura deals Holy Damage every time you are hit which gets increased by Sanctity Aura and multiplied by Righteous Fury. Not using it is not an option when a Paladins threat is already so far behind other tanks.

Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
About holding threat... You remember the Magmadar video being thrown around a lot? There's no JoW, and there's no mana potion used, yet he held threat. How is that possible?
About Exorcism in your rotation... So a Paladin is able to maintank MC, BWL and AQ40, but not Naxxramas unless he starts using Exorcism, correct?
Did you actually watch the video? It's 2 minute 40 second kill. That is incredibly slow even for 2006 standards. Duki is playing with some of the worst DPS I have ever seen, and this is used as evidence that Prot Paladins can hold aggro. You can look at the DPS meter and divide the difference in damage before and after the boss by 163 seconds (length of the boss)

The Fury Warrior f.ex is doing 270 DPS. You have any idea how dogshit this is? Warriors in preraid should be pulling 500-600+ DPS easily.

As for Exorcism in Naxx. I assumed it was pretty well understood that DPS starts doing more DPS once they get AQ40 and Naxx gear. When DPS starts to produce higher damage, the tank has to produce more TPS to compensate. Thus you need Exorcism.

Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
Holyfrog wrote: ↑5 hours ago
A Protpala chugging mana pots can probably produce similar threat to a full Protection Warrior, but in this case the Protwarrior have the advantage of a higher base armor from being able to use better itemized gear in the first place, on top of 2000 armor from the pot, on top of 10% damage reduction from def stance.
Again, you are claiming that a Palatank chugging manapots cannot produce more threat than a Warrior. I believe the general consensus was that Paladins have good threat, that's why they're good for AoE tanking, unlike Warriors! But you haven't provided any proof.
Who told you the general consensus is that Paladins do good threat? You are being just as dishonest as Duki. You flip it around and pretend as if I am the one that has to provide evidence when we have 15 years of raidlogs to look back on where not a single person can demonstrate Paladins produce the level of threat a Warrior can do.

The burden of proof is on you.

Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
Holyfrog wrote: ↑5 hours ago
There is simply never a case where a Protpaladin have higher armor than a Warrior UNLESS you are comparing a Protpala to a Dualwield Warrior, but thats not a fair comparison as the threat ceiling of a DW Warrior is miles beyond what a Paladin is capable of producing. If your guild is going for lightning fast killspeeds you will not be running a Protpala.
Well, YOU started comparing DW Tank to Palatank. And it was also YOU who specifically compared the armor totals. Your reasoning was that Paladins need to use Mana pots to maintain "high threat rotation", so they cannot chug Stoneshield pots, while Warrior can chug Stoneshield pots while DW tanking. The way I see it, you simply forgot that Paladins don't lose armor from unequipping shield.
Either way, this comparison only makes sense if you agree that Paladins chugging mana pots are able to match DW Tanks in threat, because only then it makes sense to compare their stats. In your previous paragraph, you said that paladins cannot produce more threat than a Warrior and that Palatanks need to chug manapots to produce "standard threat" of a standard Warrior tank. So prove that, then we can talk DW Tank vs. Palatank
What are you talking about? Dualwield is entire irrelevant here. I only brought it up because it's one of the advantages of a Warrior over a Paladin, and Stoneshield Potion bridge the gap between not having a shield and having one.

A Paladin can never use Stoneshield a he/she needs Major Mana Potions to sustain threat. Therefor even if a Warrior is using a Shield, the Warrior still have a 2000 armor advantage over the Paladin. Dualwield was relevant to bring up because a Dualwielding Warrior due to having Def stance wont actually take a noteworthy higher amount of damage than the Paladin tank.

Also again you are flipping the burden of proof. Are you just as bad as Duki. Seriously. It's not my job to prove that something everyone already know to be true, is true. If you truly believe Paladins can output high enough threat that they wont need Major Mana Potions, then prove it. Show me a log of a Paladin tank. Show me a video where DPS isnt garbage. Show me something.

These unsubstantiated outlandish claims are getting really old.

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Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
Heh. Learn to read I guess? I specifically mention the claim about the requirement of chugging mana pots. It's written in the very part of the post you quoted @Linguine. It doesn't mention Warriors or Druids in any way.
You came into this thread and disputed my knowledge of the game (which matches the status quo) with your own claim. Learn to logic. It hardly matters what order it was said in, simply that you want to change the status quo and I am comfortable keeping it.



As for the Magmadar Video, I have gone back over it since you were so kind to remind me.

He has no major mana pots on his bar apparently (too poor?) and only one superior mana left. Spends a whole lot of the fight oom, Loses threat to a Warlock once around 1:48, and finally gets mana back around 1:55 when he almost dies and LoH's himself. Loses aggro again at 2:02 for a moment, gets LoH'd AGAIN by someone else at 2:28 because he almost dies yet again (and gets mana), 2:38 someone pulls aggro and almost dies (or did die? hard to tell), before the boss finally dies at 2:48.

For having https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19019/ ... windseeker and AQ gear he sure does almost die a lot to Magmadar and loses threat THREE TIMES despite Thunderfury because he is oom. Thunderfury was carrying the threat and he still couldn't.

Edit: Might I add, he loses aggro THREE TIMES to terrible DPS. In fact, it looked like the second person who took aggro was a Ret Paladin.

   Holyfrog
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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
Well no, because when a Warrior starts tanking in preraid blue gear they will not be generating enough rage to use an ability every GCD. As gear progresses, you get more rage generation which increases the frequency of your abilities. At later stages you also start incorporating more Heroic Strikes into your rotation as replacementes for white hits.
A Paladin will never be able to increase the frequency of which you get to use your abilities. That is the main difference.
Isn't that = Less Gear = More Damage Taken = More Rage , More Gear = Less Damage Taken = Less Rage?!

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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
Well no, because when a Warrior starts tanking in preraid blue gear they will not be generating enough rage to use an ability every GCD. As gear progresses, you get more rage generation which increases the frequency of your abilities. At later stages you also start incorporating more Heroic Strikes into your rotation as replacementes for white hits.
A Paladin will never be able to increase the frequency of which you get to use your abilities. That is the main difference.
Isn't that = Less Gear = More Damage Taken = More Rage , More Gear = Less Damage Taken = Less Rage?!
They get more +hit, more strength, more agility, more crit...

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Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
Heh. Learn to read I guess? I specifically mention the claim about the requirement of chugging mana pots. It's written in the very part of the post you quoted @Linguine. It doesn't mention Warriors or Druids in any way.
Are you four years old? Why do you have to be so smug?

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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
You are limited to 16 debuff slots in Vanilla. This means that while Judgement of Wisdom is required for a Protection Paladin to keep up the threat rotation, it's uneccessary for the vast majority of content, as caster DPS already have the tools to sustain their mana through longer encounters by using abilities such as Evocation, Mana Gems, Life Tap or even Feigndeath+Drink.

Bringing a Paladin tank means that instead of using say, Gift of Arthas to increase every melee hit done by anyone in the raid by 8 damage, you are now spending the debuff slot to support the Protection Paladin.
Judgement of Wisdom support = ALL Mages , Warlock , Spriest , Healers (pala/priest/druid) = More DPS By Warlock/Spriest/Mages , More Heal by Healers.

Where is Deep Wounds debuff slot wasting , benefits who ? none!

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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
Heh. Learn to read I guess? I specifically mention the claim about the requirement of chugging mana pots. It's written in the very part of the post you quoted @Linguine. It doesn't mention Warriors or Druids in any way.
Are you four years old? Why do you have to be so smug?
I would say it's "oozing" with "smugness" (or something...else).

I am sure @Stfuppercut would agree.

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Linguine wrote:
1 week ago
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
Heh. Learn to read I guess? I specifically mention the claim about the requirement of chugging mana pots. It's written in the very part of the post you quoted @Linguine. It doesn't mention Warriors or Druids in any way.
Are you four years old? Why do you have to be so smug?
I would say it's "oozing" with "smugness" (or something...else).

I am sure @Stfuppercut would agree.
And then they both call me toxic.... Nice to see how they suddenly become Killerduki.

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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
Well no, because when a Warrior starts tanking in preraid blue gear they will not be generating enough rage to use an ability every GCD. As gear progresses, you get more rage generation which increases the frequency of your abilities. At later stages you also start incorporating more Heroic Strikes into your rotation as replacementes for white hits.
A Paladin will never be able to increase the frequency of which you get to use your abilities. That is the main difference.
Isn't that = Less Gear = More Damage Taken = More Rage , More Gear = Less Damage Taken = Less Rage?!
Yeah it's not as if you get higher weapon damage, more crits, hit more, get more Flurry procs etc. Warrior damage and thus threat also scale exponentially with armor debuff and reducing the boss armor down to 0 like you most likely can in Classic means more or less endless amounts of rage. This is not the case for a Paladin.

You have a very simple and incomplete understanding of the games combat mechanics if you think it's as simple upgrading gear means you produce less threat.

Let me explain. When you enter Molten Core in blue gear, your raid is able to handle the incoming damage. As you get more gear, you dont actually want to wear more mitigation. You want to wear the exact same level of mitigation, but replace your defensive pieces with more and more offensive pieces. At the same time your healers are also gearing up which means they have an easier time keeping you alive.

By the time your guild progress to BWL you can wear mitigation gear once more, as the incoming damage increase. As you gear up in BWL you can replace more and more of your mitigation gear with offensive gear to increase your threat.

By the time AQ40 comes out...

You see where I am going with this? Armor is just a very minor part of what makes up your total Rage generation. It's also the part that smoothes out incoming damage from wearing less mitigation and defense, and high HP/Armor will easily keep you alive

As long as you have enough health and armor that you wont die to spikes of burst damage, you are free to wear as much offensive gear you can get your hands on. Warriors also get a tank set in every single raid tier with amazing itemization. Getting enough health and armor in between your offensive items is much easier than on a Paladin. Def stance is also a huge assist here.
killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Where is Deep Wounds debuff slot wasting , benefits who ? none!
Deep Wounds is a low priority debuff. It will NEVER knock off any debuff your raid actually want to be up on the boss. You keep demonstrating you dont even grasp the very basics of combat mechanics and its getting old.

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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Judgement of Wisdom support = ALL Mages , Warlock , Spriest , Healers (pala/priest/druid) = More DPS By Warlock/Spriest/Mages , More Heal by Healers.
How is https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20355 ... -of-wisdom restoring the mana of healers? Their heals are not attacks made against the boss, and to attack the boss would waste mana and negate any benefit of the mana return anyway.

Furthermore, Wisdom is a waste if the mana is not needed due to the fight not being long enough to warrant it. Fights are much shorter after all when your DPS is not held back by threat or their own poor skills.
killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
And then they both call me toxic.... Nice to see how they suddenly become Killerduki.
I have not randomly accused anyone of racism.

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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
Yeah it's not as if you get higher weapon damage, more crits, hit more, get more Flurry procs etc. Warrior damage and thus threat also scale exponentially with armor debuff and reducing the boss armor down to 0 like you most likely can in Classic means more or less endless amounts of rage. This is not the case for a Paladin.


That's why Offtank Warriors are nowhere near close to Threat in Magmadar , because "they rely on higher weapon damage" and NOT that much on "DMG Income" ...

The 2 Warriors in the Video are DPS and not Prot!

Please provide evidence that Prot Warrior is doing high amount of threat by not taking DMG!
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
Let me explain. When you enter Molten Core in blue gear, your raid is able to handle the incoming damage. As you get more gear, you dont actually want to wear more mitigation. You want to wear the exact same level of mitigation, but replace your defensive pieces with more and more offensive pieces. At the same time your healers are also gearing up which means they have an easier time keeping you alive.

By the time your guild progress to BWL you can wear mitigation gear once more, as the incoming damage increase. As you gear up in BWL you can replace more and more of your mitigation gear with offensive gear to increase your threat.

By the time AQ40 comes out...
The exactly same thing you would do as Paladin either, you get more threat gear and you don't actually want to wear more mitigation.

So we are in the same boat out there .
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
You see where I am going with this? Armor is just a very minor part of what makes up your total Rage generation. It's also the part that smoothes out incoming damage from wearing less mitigation and defense, and high HP/Armor will easily keep you alive
That's what Psojed told you either, Paladin also do use Tier 2/2.5/Naxx/PVP Pala Offsets for such behavior either.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
Warriors also get a tank set in every single raid tier with amazing itemization. Getting enough health and armor in between your offensive items is much easier than on a Paladin.
Much easier is not true , as i already explained how Paladin Gearing up work in the Video i created for Full Defense Gear, doesn't mean you can't shift that Gear for :

D2 , PVP , T2 , T2.5 , Naxx Pala Offsets + many other AQ Plate with SP Items.

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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
The exactly same thing you would do as Paladin either, you get more threat gear and you don't actually want to wear more mitigation.

So we are in the same boat out there .
He's already been over this.

The threat pieces for Warrior have high innate stam values due to being from later content.

Paladin? Can't even get enough mitagation it looks like judging from your Magmadar Video where you almost die twice even with AQ gear.

I can imagine what this video would look like with less gear and no Thunderfury.

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Linguine wrote:
1 week ago
How is Judgement of Wisdom restoring the mana of healers? Their heals are not attacks made against the boss, and to attack the boss would waste mana and negate any benefit of the mana return anyway.
Melee Swing by Holy Paladin between heals = mana regen , Wanding by Priest Healer = mana regen , Perhaps for Druids is little more complicated , but Druids anyway are last to have such mana issues.

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Linguine wrote:
1 week ago
Furthermore, Wisdom is a waste if the mana is not needed due to the fight not being long enough to warrant it. Fights are much shorter after all when your DPS is not held back by threat or their own poor skills.
Mages = they don't have to spend GCD for Mana consumes , Warlocks = they don't have to waste GCD for Mana and risking their lifes for reducing their Health for that , Spriests = they already do have Mana issues.

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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Linguine wrote:
1 week ago
Furthermore, Wisdom is a waste if the mana is not needed due to the fight not being long enough to warrant it. Fights are much shorter after all when your DPS is not held back by threat or their own poor skills.
Mages = they don't have to spend GCD for Mana consumes , Warlocks = they don't have to waste GCD for Mana and risking their lifes for reducing their Health for that , Spriests = they already do have Mana issues.
Mana Consumes (Mana Gem, Demonic Rune, Mana Pot) don't use GCD.


Edit: Warlocks do not lifetap except in emergencies. They also use Demonic Rune.

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Linguine wrote:
1 week ago
Paladin? Can't even get enough mitagation it looks like judging from your Magmadar Video where you almost die twice even with AQ gear.
Sure it would been extremely easier to survive in Fire Resistance Gear (which you can easy get before any Raid, before AQ) . I don't deny that fact!

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Linguine wrote:
1 week ago
killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Linguine wrote:
1 week ago
Furthermore, Wisdom is a waste if the mana is not needed due to the fight not being long enough to warrant it. Fights are much shorter after all when your DPS is not held back by threat or their own poor skills.
Mages = they don't have to spend GCD for Mana consumes , Warlocks = they don't have to waste GCD for Mana and risking their lifes for reducing their Health for that , Spriests = they already do have Mana issues.
Mana Consumes (Mana Gem, Demonic Rune, Mana Pot) don't use GCD.
Sure, but you can use them once every 2 minutes.

Evocation = Holy Shit! .....Congratulation , you just waste 8 seconds = 1k dps = 8000 damage!
Thanks to JoW you just did 8k damage more each 8 minutes.

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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Linguine wrote:
1 week ago
killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Linguine wrote:
1 week ago
Furthermore, Wisdom is a waste if the mana is not needed due to the fight not being long enough to warrant it. Fights are much shorter after all when your DPS is not held back by threat or their own poor skills.
Mages = they don't have to spend GCD for Mana consumes , Warlocks = they don't have to waste GCD for Mana and risking their lifes for reducing their Health for that , Spriests = they already do have Mana issues.
Mana Consumes (Mana Gem, Demonic Rune, Mana Pot) don't use GCD.
Sure, but you can use them once every 2 minutes.

Evocation = Holy Shit! .....
They don't need them more than once every two minutes. They fight is over if it isn't on a boss like Nef, and Holyfrog has already said that is a situation for JoW.

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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
waste GCD for Mana
killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Wanding by Priest Healer = mana regen
Wanding activates the GCD and the Priest would only ever do this if they truly were OOM, something that should not be happening on short fights.

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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
And then they both call me toxic.... Nice to see how they suddenly become Killerduki.
You are most certainly toxic. You behave like a child.

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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Please provide evidence that Prot Warrior is doing high amount of threat by not taking DMG!
Seriously. You and Skarm already had this discussion in the TC discord. You both went on the repack, you both did multiple TPS tests as offtanks and Skarm beat you hands down every time on threat.

You have already have this proven to you over and over. Why do you flat out deny it? What the fuck is wrong with you? You were given HARD evidence that Warriors produce more threat than a Paladin both when maintanking and offtanking and yet you have the audacity to sit here and demand evidence that this is the case when its already been proven to you.

   Stfuppercut Linguine
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1 week ago (Beta)
1 week ago (Beta)
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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Please provide evidence that Prot Warrior is doing high amount of threat by not taking DMG!
Seriously. You and Skarm already had this discussion in the TC discord. You both went on the repack, you both did multiple TPS tests as offtanks and Skarm beat you hands down every time on threat.

You have already have this proven to you over and over. Why do you flat out deny it? What the fuck is wrong with you? You were given HARD evidence that Warriors produce more threat than a Paladin both when maintanking and offtanking and yet you have the audacity to sit here and demand evidence that this is the case when its already been proven to you.
I thought his posts seemed really weird... It was also strange that a new member came onboard with such a quantity of information supporting his claims on one subject. Fixated on one subject. He had a poorly constructed argument, but it also seemed to be an argument that he spent a lot of time constructing. He didn't seem to make any posts on any of the other topics. It would appear that he spends his time seeking this specific topic out (paladin tanking) and then begins spamming videos, often misrepresenting them or flat out lying about the context of the videos. It was also strange that he began to counter certain arguments before they were presented to him, as if he had this debate before.

Each and every time we offered specific criticisms, we would be spammed by an obnoxious wall of videos that failed to move the conversation forward because he would claim they were progressive raids while wearing gear that outmatched the content.

This is why I treated him like a child right out of the gate. I was pretty surprised that moderation stepped in and quoted me, when he was behaving so toxic, name calling, etc... Really terrible addition to the community to be honest. Calling people racists, and now projecting toxicity on everyone else... I am not a mental health professional but we might be dealing with something other than a passionate gamer. @Holyfrog definitely sheds a lot more context on @killerduki's past. This gives a lot more insight into what kind of person we are dealing with. It would be nice to go full circle and bring Skarm in on this conversation to have the cycle completed.

   Linguine Holyfrog
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