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6 months ago (Beta)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
6 months ago
...The token dramitcally mitigates the affect of gold buying on the greater economy.
Stfuppercut wrote:
6 months ago
...the difference is that the greater economy isn't suffering for his actions to the same extent.
Stfuppercut wrote:
6 months ago
The outcome is the same. Regardless of how complicated and capable the bot is, or how simple and basic it is, the bot fishes for you endlessly and rapes the economy.
Stfuppercut wrote:
6 months ago
For any of us who understand the economy and the potential for what a bot can make, this wont be effective. The start up for a bot is lower that it has ever been and the profit margins are higher.
Stfuppercut wrote:
6 months ago
We're talking mass inflation on the economy, we're talking MASS quantities of consumes at dirt cheap prices completely changing the meta of PvP, insane quantities of black gold being reinvested into the economy to control monopolies on valuable commodities, the list goes on and on...
This is called 'attacking the straw man' - a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

I haven't presented an argument based on economics (said this already) - why are you responding to my points by referring to the economy in your conclusions? I can't really come back at you because all of the above are now posts that I can disregard almost completely - they're not actually responding to what I have contributed so far.
Stfuppercut wrote:
6 months ago
I have not been receiving sources in return.
Thanks for linking your sources to support the notion that gold farming existed in WoW, they seem sound.

If it's me you're referring to - you won't find figures that require a citing so I assume you're talking about someone else. I'm only providing conjecture based on what I think most average players will do.
So let's stop with the strawman responses about economics and inflation which I don't understand and never referred to originally. Here, I'll lay things out for you clearly:

1. We both agree that real money should not be involved in Classic.

2. WoW tokens encourage and enable people bring real money into Classic with no ramifications.


If you agree with number 1, how can you possibly justify number 2?

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For me this is similar to EVE. You can buy game time or "token(plex)" to sell or give. The game is not better nor worse with it.

Token>>>bots and spammers everywhere. I would much rather have token than broken immersion every 10minutes. Real money will be in clasic one way or another, rather to have it blizzard way than botters way. Just my 2 cents.

   Stfuppercut
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Stfuppercut wrote:
6 months ago
Just because you are emotionally opposed to the token
I don't want otherwise game law-abiding people who wouldn't buy gold to begin buying gold once it is condoned.
Stfuppercut wrote:
6 months ago
The token IS the lesser of two evils.
And how is the token the lesser of the two evils? The way I see it MORE gold will be bought and sold with the token. Your point of view is that it's better that it's not synthetic, but what about the increased purchasing? Risk-free gold purchasing too, I might add.

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s1atan wrote:
6 months ago
Token>>>bots and spammers everywhere. I would much rather have token than broken immersion every 10minutes. Real money will be in clasic one way or another, rather to have it blizzard way than botters way. Just my 2 cents.
I never had the level of bots and spam in Vanilla. I never even had the Chinese try to talk to me except the one time I accidentally randomized my troll's name and it gave me something that all the gold farmers thought was Chinese like them. Even then, they didn't spam me, they just wanted to talk to me.

Just because private servers are a mess doesn't mean original vanilla was.

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Linguine wrote:
6 months ago
Just because private servers are a mess doesn't mean original vanilla was.
I think you've spotted a key issue, most players have tainted memories from their more recent pserver experiences. That's the way it comes across with a lot of the vocal minority at least. A lot of classic enthusiasts have played pservers (myself included) and if they had a particular negative experience there, they are assuming it will be mirrored in Classic WoW, which is definitely just hyperbole. People running shitty pservers for some shady cash != classic WoW run by Blizz.

No one knows exactly what the new meta will be for Classic, but it sure as shit won't be the garbage most pservers served up.

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teebling wrote:
6 months ago
1. We both agree that real money should not be involved in Classic.

2. WoW tokens encourage and enable people bring real money into Classic with no ramifications.


If you agree with number 1, how can you possibly justify number 2?
Because you have no evidence to suggest that the token encourages people to buy gold or that the token does infact increase the amount of gold being traded between users. As you can see from my references, gold farming was a MASSIVE industry before the token. All signs point to this industry increasing in size for Classic. The demand of gold will likely be higher.

The token may not increase the gold being purchased. That is the stretch. That is where we cant agree. If you were to buy 1000g from a farmer or to buy it from the token, the token is irrefutably better for the economy. Without any evidence to support the token increasing the quantity of gold being sold, the token is simply a superior outcome.

As far as your comments on the economy, this entire debate is based on the economy. The economy is the only validation for the token. I'll be honest Teebs, you were opposed to the token before you even understood how it worked. In one of your first posts you were saying that it created new gold... This is the vibe I'm getting from a lot of people here who are antitoken. They KNOW they are opposed to the token, but they aren't quite sure how it works or what implications it has; the scary unknown.

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Linguine wrote:
6 months ago
I don't want otherwise game law-abiding people who wouldn't buy gold to begin buying gold once it is condoned.
A gigantic portion of players were always buying gold. There is no indication that the token increases the quantity of gold being sold.
Linguine wrote:
6 months ago
The way I see it MORE gold will be bought and sold with the token.
Source?
Linguine wrote:
6 months ago
And how is the token the lesser of the two evils?... Your point of view is that it's better that it's not synthetic, but what about the increased purchasing? Risk-free gold purchasing too, I might add.
I'm so glad you asked. Gold farmers and bots rape the economy. I have went over this point to nauseam throughout this thread. This is the reason the token was introduced. Buying gold that was generated by a player legitimately playing the game, is better for the economy than buying gold that was generated by a gold farmer or a bot. Show me sources that indicate the purchase of gold has increased.

Consider that value for $ to purchasing gold from gold farmer will typically be higher than with the token.
Consider that gold selling (based on my sources above) was always a gigantic industry and the overhead to running these gold farms is less today than it was 15 years ago.
Consider that the demographic of players returning are more inclined to purchase gold today than they were previous AND that the modern generation of gamers are accustomed to micro purchases.
Consider that the farmers themselves are more negotiable and willing to trade in a variety of ways that Blizzard would not. This is an important point, because while arguments (strong arguments) can be made that buying off of a 3rd party site is a deterrent AND is less accessible, these companies also offer some accessibility through negotiation that Blizzard would not be willing to offer. IE, they will trade accounts for gold, they will trade runs through raids for gold, etc etc etc...

All of this has been covered throughout this very thread. You will have gold sellers or you will have the token, choose one. The token IS the lesser of two evils.

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1 week ago
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Linguine wrote:
6 months ago
Just because private servers are a mess doesn't mean original vanilla was.
Ughhhhhhh... Why do we do this to ourselves. Private servers are a working prototype for Classic. Do they have the same anti-cheat detection? No. But they have FAR more GM's per player to resolve issues than retail will. Bots exist in retail. Their anti-cheat is strong, but botting will still be an issue. As you stated before Linguine, Classic will likely have less GM support. On a server of 12k people (which is likely closer to Classic server pops than in retail vanilla due to layering) in private, I can put in a ticket and get a response between 30seconds-5mins. The support is unreal. Back to your point...

Why do you feel that people on private servers will play the game differently than Classic, especially when all surveys completed on this website and others would indicate that A) most people on private intend to play in Classic and B) ~50% of the people on these forums and on reddit who participate are part of the private server community.

People will have a demand for gold. That demand will be satiated for money. That will occur with bots. That will occur with gold farmers. These will impact your game experience more than the token.

edit: do I think that botting will be AS bad in Classic as it is on private? No. Why? Because of the overhead. Free accounts and less overhead will ALWAYS increase the amount of botting and gold selling. Lets remember though that the only overhead for Classic is that sub fee. So I also believe that gold selling in Classic will be higher than it was in retail vanilla. I believe this due to the reduced overhead and the potential for increased demand.

g0bledyg00k wrote:
1 week ago
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Stfuppercut wrote:
6 months ago
But they have FAR more GM's per player to resolve issues than retail will.
GMs actively ignore parts of the ToS and just don't feel like enforcing game rules all the time on both the major pservers. It seems they're more there to fix issues having to do with the server's shoddy code.

GMs on these servers even have reports of rulebreaking themselves or banning people they meet on their personal characters just because they feel like it.

Not seeing the GM support at all, and there seems to be a quantity over quality issue as well as a distinct difference in purpose than retail vanilla's GMs.

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Linguine wrote:
6 months ago
GMs actively ignore parts of the ToS and just don't feel like enforcing game rules all the time on both the major pservers. It seems they're more there to fix issues having to do with the server's shoddy code.

GMs on these servers even have reports of rulebreaking themselves or banning people they meet on their personal characters just because they feel like it.

Not seeing the GM support at all, and there seems to be a quantity over quality issue as well as a distinct difference in purpose than retail vanilla's GMs.
Your experience and mine have differed drastically. I play with about 5-6 other people and im in close contact with a guild of users and we are all amazed with the superior support private offers to retail. We were shocked that unpaid volunteers were offering such incredible support. Though I typically only have reports regarding game bugs etc, I don't find myself reporting many behavioral issues because I have pretty thick skin and am usually self-sufficient.

In vanilla I could put in a ticket and not see it answered in the next few days at times. Private I am getting answers immediately. This was true for Elysium, Lights Hope and Kronos.

Needless to say, private servers are definitely shady. This is why the majority of that community will all be shifting to Classic on launch. A lot of the chit chat about what sort of nefarious deeds are going on behind the scenes are mostly ghost tales and inner circle debacles that then seep out to the community in bits and pieces. We know mysterious things are afoot, but we don't know exactly what is happening, so the community tends to speculate based on the bits and pieces we do know. Private has been a fun ride, but I can not wait for Classic!

g0bledyg00k wrote:
1 week ago
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Linguine wrote:
6 months ago
s1atan wrote:
6 months ago
Token>>>bots and spammers everywhere. I would much rather have token than broken immersion every 10minutes. Real money will be in clasic one way or another, rather to have it blizzard way than botters way. Just my 2 cents.
I never had the level of bots and spam in Vanilla. I never even had the Chinese try to talk to me except the one time I accidentally randomized my troll's name and it gave me something that all the gold farmers thought was Chinese like them. Even then, they didn't spam me, they just wanted to talk to me.

Just because private servers are a mess doesn't mean original vanilla was.
I hope that it will be like you describing it. And I also hope there will be no need for token.

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5 months ago (Beta)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
6 months ago
Selexin wrote:
6 months ago

I'm with @Nenski here, it would be drastically easier and risk free to create a bot for a shitty run MaNGOS pserver than a Blizzard run server utilising their latest security tech.
Right. But I linked a video of a bot being used in BFA. They exist. They work. Difficulty aside, they are available.
Selexin wrote:
6 months ago
I don't want tokens, I want Classic WoW. I want Blizzard to continue to work on their security tech to prevent as many bots as possible and be ruthless with the ban hammer/legal threats. There will always be bots, so focus on reducing the bulk of them so we can just play classic as true to the vanilla experience as possible.
Thats a fair perception. I think this is the difference... We both accept that there will be bots and im okay with compromising on my own principals (selling the token) to alleviate most of the botting issue and promote a healthier economy. You guys would rather take a moral stance despite the fact that the token would likely be better for the health of the economy. Is that fair?
Clinging to evidence of one hotkey bot available to the public on retail is not going to convince anyone truly committed to the Classic experience to stand for tokens being available. Look at the inflation that occurred due to tokens from WOD to present day in retail WoW. Blizzard couldn't solve the issue, tried to capture the gold buying market for themselves instead (albeit in a more transparent way than bots) and succeeded. The tokens saw so much success and at the same time made the game largely P2W.
I'm sorry you have money to spare and would like to trade your dollars for virtual gold to get an edge in WoW Classic. You need to accept the fact that vanilla WoW wasn't that forgiving. If you wanted gold, you had to earn it in game. It gave things "real" value, because when people saw how much money you had or your rare gear, they knew you had actually had to earn that money or items in game with your TIME SPENT PLAYING. Getting your epic mount required you to invest your time, not open your wallet. I would rather Blizzard make the botters sweat, and keep gold buying a BANNABLE OFFENSE. If you want to buy gold from botter's, keep it a close secret, risk your account, and maybe get banned for it.

Vanilla didn't have tokens, and Classic won't either. Whether that makes sense to you is irrelevant. The community doesn't want the token system. It doesn't solve botting, it replaces botting and makes Blizzard more money. You can argue that it doesn't cause inflation, but it does. When you incentivize a large segment of the player base to farm to save themselves 15$, you introduce more resources and gold into the game for game time. The gold and resources remain, the game time is used up. Hence, inflation. If the gold went to Blizzard directly and was erased, it would be a gold sink and operate as a deflationary force. The fact that the token system was player to player, and another player got the gold was the issue. The token holder paid real money and the person buying the token is performing the role of the bot, farming gold and giving them gold for game time (which is just dollars). How is incentivizing a large segment of the server to become a pseudo-bot any better? The answer is, it isn't. Botting should be difficult and a bannable offense in classic WoW, and that is the direction they are going.

Wake up. They turned the players into the bots, and made a nice profit off of you while they did it. Keep tokens away from Classic or watch as the economy becomes meaningless in short order and have the game die quite soon after that. The whole point of WoW was its immersion and in-game community. Both of those are eroded by the token system. Pay your 15$ sub and earn your way grinding like everyone else. Or play the AH if you're smart enough. That is the fairest the economy is going to get. If there are a few bots operating, they will be found, the people buying gold from them will be found, and if they aren't there will still be FAR less than the amount who would be pseudo-botting and buying gold through a WoW token system.

P.S. I could maybe see tokens being healthy for the economy if it was one way, and you paid blizzard in gold for the game time. But that makes blizzard less money, so of course they won't implement it that way.

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A lot of great discussion about tokens, but I keep getting drawn back to the simple economics of it. One of my biggest lingering questions - how much would a Classic player actually spend, in Gold, for a token?

Is it a matter of there being some super-wealthy people with nothing else to spend Gold on after a certain point, and using their in-game wealth to save real money? I imagine that the demand for tokens (people wanting to pay real money to get Gold) will far outweigh the number of people looking to save some dollars by burning their Classic WoW Gold, which would cause the amount of Gold returned for a token to plummet. But then that might cause budget-minded players to be more likely to buy a token, thereby increasing the supply....

Obviously I'm just talking myself in circles, but if everything evened out, what do you think the average return on a token would be? I don't think it would be enough for an epic mount (>900g), maybe more like 200-300g. Much less than that and I don't think anyone except the laziest and richest people would bother; much more, and you wouldn't have enough people actually purchasing tokens with Gold.

I think I need to go read more about how the current token system works, but unless Blizz keeps their thumbs on the scales to keep it even for buyers and sellers, I think tokens could end up being too volatile for Blizz to want to bother.

edit: I went and read how the current system works, and it seems like the price is determined by Blizz using an algorithm that factors in current supply/demand. So a less likely chance of Gold or real money prices swinging too wildly, but still makes me wonder if Blizz would have to "print" Gold to make tokens worth it in Classic (as in, maybe tokens cost 300g from the AH for the buyer, but reward 500g to the seller - Blizz creates 200g out of thin air to provide value to the token). But then that could be exploited by just buying your own tokens.... I really hope they don't use tokens, I'm already tired of them :lol:

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A simple answer: Hell No!

A simpler answer: No!

Technically it is already in classic but you need to get the token in retail and apply it to your account.
Classic should not have tokens with in the game itself, it just wasnt in vanilla.

Pay $15 a month or farm gold in retail on the side to pay for classic...

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Here we go boys. This is gonna be fun!

Edwin_VanKeef wrote:
5 months ago
Clinging to evidence of one hotkey bot available to the public on retail is not going to convince anyone truly committed to the Classic experience to stand for tokens being available.
Bots are one outcome with no token. There are many bots available in retail currently. As I have discussed with others. They could completely remove bots, and you would still have gold farmers. The outcome is the same.
Edwin_VanKeef wrote:
5 months ago
Look at the inflation that occurred due to tokens from WOD to present day in retail WoW. Blizzard couldn't solve the issue, tried to capture the gold buying market for themselves instead (albeit in a more transparent way than bots) and succeeded. The tokens saw so much success and at the same time made the game largely P2W.
You think that the inflation is due to the token and not the economics of the game? Yikes. You think that the token increases inflation at a higher rate than gold farmers and bots? Yikes!!! Do you understand the economy at all? The token isnt creating black gold. It is trading clean gold that was legitimately earned. All this clean gold being earned is simply traded to other players with Blizzard hosting the trade. The greater economy is not effected in the same way that it is with bots and gold farmers.

Edwin_VanKeef wrote:
5 months ago
I'm sorry you have money to spare and would like to trade your dollars for virtual gold to get an edge in WoW Classic. You need to accept the fact that vanilla WoW wasn't that forgiving.
Someone else tried to throw some of that shade at me earlier. I have never bought the token in retail, nor have I sold a token. I dont plan on buying or selling any in Classic if they were available either. The token increases the economic health of the game for everyone. Whenever gold is sold or traded, the players who dont participate lose... With the token, we lose less.
Edwin_VanKeef wrote:
5 months ago
...and keep gold buying a BANNABLE OFFENSE. If you want to buy gold from botter's, keep it a close secret, risk your account, and maybe get banned for it.
Have you read any of this thread? Look at the size of the gold selling industry and how many players were buying gold. Banning players was a deterrent. But it wasnt an effective one. It couldnt put a dent in that industry.
Edwin_VanKeef wrote:
5 months ago
Vanilla didn't have tokens, and Classic won't either.
Another repeat argument here boys! Maybe you did read the thread and just highlighted some other arguments that were made? This argument is a bit easier to smash though. Check this out. Battlenet integration. No progressive itemization. Layering will exist. Right click reporting. Updated mailbox and auction house functionality. If your argument is that Vanilla didnt have something, so Classic wont, that argument simply does not hold water. Slam dunked.
Edwin_VanKeef wrote:
5 months ago
The community doesn't want the token system.
I'm part of the community. When did we vote you in as the Captain? Though i'll agree, I would only use the token once the economy stabilized and botting/gold farming snowballed out of control.
Edwin_VanKeef wrote:
5 months ago
It doesn't solve botting, it replaces botting and makes Blizzard more money. You can argue that it doesn't cause inflation, but it does.
It doesn't cause inflation in the same way a bot or a farmer do. It also doesnt make Blizzard more money. 2 players. 2 subs. 1 player is paying for both of them. Blizzard makes the same amount of money that they would have anyways. They are hosting the sale to eradicate farmers and stabilize the economy. A farmer has overhead. Their profit margins are low. They cant compete with the token AND the anti cheat system. This combination is detrimental. I've linked previous sources if you want to take a looksy.

Edwin_VanKeef wrote:
5 months ago
When you incentivize a large segment of the player base to farm to save themselves 15$, you introduce more resources and gold into the game for game time.
No. Because they players who play more, are simply accommodating the players who play less. This actually helps the economy in a lot of ways. This single point could stimulate a GIGANTIC conversation in and of itself. Incentivizing players to spend more time in the world and actively participate is a good thing for the health of the game. Probably not so healthy for the individual players...

Edwin_VanKeef wrote:
5 months ago
They turned the players into the bots, and made a nice profit off of you while they did it.
Wait what?
Edwin_VanKeef wrote:
5 months ago
Keep tokens away from Classic or watch as the economy becomes meaningless in short order and have the game die quite soon after that.
You have no idea how the economy of this game works. None. I actually have no motivation to even continue this conversation because you are so ignorant lol. This will be the first conversation (specifically with you) that I will have to bow out of on this forum.
Edwin_VanKeef wrote:
5 months ago
The whole point of WoW was its immersion and in-game community. Both of those are eroded by the token system.
Oh yea? The token erodes immersion more than bots and gold farmers? That's interesting.
Edwin_VanKeef wrote:
5 months ago
Pay your 15$ sub and earn your way grinding like everyone else.
I've already addressed this little quip. Look at the gold selling market pre token. You will have the token OR you will have bots and gold farmers. There is no outcome where "everyone else" is playing legitimately. You will be surrounded by people paying to win. The token is the lesser of two evils.
Edwin_VanKeef wrote:
5 months ago
Or play the AH if you're smart enough. That is the fairest the economy is going to get.
Yea, I've contributed to a few different gold selling conversations on the server. I will likely be 60 within a few weeks of release with my epic mount. I have a firm grasp on the economy which allows me to violate it and earn gold incredibly fast. Such a firm grasp in fact that I understand the implications of the token and the realities of the game without it.
Edwin_VanKeef wrote:
5 months ago
P.S. I could maybe see tokens being healthy for the economy if it was one way, and you paid blizzard in gold for the game time. But that makes blizzard less money, so of course they won't implement it that way.
You have a lot of reading to do. Go back and read through this thread. Understand that gold farming was massive and that the game was always pay to win. Once you have that understood, go read about the economy and attempt to understand the difference between clean gold and black gold. Do a little research on counterfeit money and understand the implications it has on an economy.

The question here is not "sHOULd EWE Uze DA token!?" The question you need to ask yourself is: "Do I want the token OR do I want my server swarmed with bots and gold sellers." Those are your options. There is no reality where people will all be playing fair. You can say this is bleak, but this is reality. This is the way it was in retail vanilla. This is the way it is on private servers to a greater extent 15 years later. It will be the same in Classic.

I wont be responding to another post from you that is repetitive and fails to bring anything constructive or compelling to the table. Dont be lazy. A lot of people here put in some solid effort into their posts. Go back and read them so you are informed.

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1 week ago
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Nyxt wrote:
5 months ago
Technically it is already in classic but you need to get the token in retail and apply it to your account.
Classic should not have tokens with in the game itself, it just wasnt in vanilla.

Pay $15 a month or farm gold in retail on the side to pay for classic...
That isn't the point. The people here advocating for the token WANT the token in Classic (potentially if needed), not to buy gold, but to allow others to buy gold so that the game isn't swarmed with bots and gold sellers. Having the token in retail does nothing for the Classic community.

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1 week ago
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Latsiv wrote:
5 months ago
A lot of great discussion about tokens, but I keep getting drawn back to the simple economics of it. One of my biggest lingering questions - how much would a Classic player actually spend, in Gold, for a token?

Is it a matter of there being some super-wealthy people with nothing else to spend Gold on after a certain point, and using their in-game wealth to save real money? I imagine that the demand for tokens (people wanting to pay real money to get Gold) will far outweigh the number of people looking to save some dollars by burning their Classic WoW Gold, which would cause the amount of Gold returned for a token to plummet. But then that might cause budget-minded players to be more likely to buy a token, thereby increasing the supply....

Obviously I'm just talking myself in circles, but if everything evened out, what do you think the average return on a token would be? I don't think it would be enough for an epic mount (>900g), maybe more like 200-300g. Much less than that and I don't think anyone except the laziest and richest people would bother; much more, and you wouldn't have enough people actually purchasing tokens with Gold.

I think I need to go read more about how the current token system works, but unless Blizz keeps their thumbs on the scales to keep it even for buyers and sellers, I think tokens could end up being too volatile for Blizz to want to bother.

edit: I went and read how the current system works, and it seems like the price is determined by Blizz using an algorithm that factors in current supply/demand. So a less likely chance of Gold or real money prices swinging too wildly, but still makes me wonder if Blizz would have to "print" Gold to make tokens worth it in Classic (as in, maybe tokens cost 300g from the AH for the buyer, but reward 500g to the seller - Blizz creates 200g out of thin air to provide value to the token). But then that could be exploited by just buying your own tokens.... I really hope they don't use tokens, I'm already tired of them :lol:
Supply and demand. If a token was introduced on week 1, they would sell for 50g-100g. Enough to buy a mount. As the game progresses and gold naturally devalues the price of the token climbs. Players can farm ~50-100g per hour in Classic at 60. I would estimate that the token would eventually climb to 600-1200g. This will all depend on the individual server. The market determines the value. As more tokens are being placed on the AH than are being sold, the token drops in value. As the purchase of tokens spikes their value increases. The algorithm subtly shifts the value of the token back and forth to keep the buy rate of tokens similar. If the algorithm sees that too few or too many tokens are being purchased it will adjust the price.

g0bledyg00k wrote:
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Stfuppercut wrote:
5 months ago
This will all depend on the individual server.
Token prices are region-wide in retail, so all US servers have one token price.
Stfuppercut wrote:
5 months ago
The market determines the value.
But only as much as Blizz lets it. Blizz makes ~$5 every token sale (over someone just buying a subscription normally), so I would expect them to "fudge" the algorithm to their benefit. With the smaller scales of Gold in Classic (and Gold's increased relevance) I wonder if a Classic token would make that "fudging" too obvious and unappealing.

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Latsiv wrote:
5 months ago
Stfuppercut wrote:
5 months ago
This will all depend on the individual server.
Token prices are region-wide in retail, so all US servers have one token price.
Correct. I assume this would not be appropriate for Classic. Hence why I assume it would depend on the individual server, though stabilization across all servers could be valuable. This would be an interesting decision for Blizzard to make.
Latsiv wrote:
5 months ago
Stfuppercut wrote:
5 months ago
The market determines the value.
But only as much as Blizz lets it. Blizz makes ~$5 every token sale (over someone just buying a subscription normally), so I would expect them to "fudge" the algorithm to their benefit. With the smaller scales of Gold in Classic (and Gold's increased relevance) I wonder if a Classic token would make that "fudging" too obvious and unappealing.
They deserve some surcharge for hosting the sale... As far as them fudiging, this is tinfoil and all based on speculation. A bit of a stretch to be honest.

g0bledyg00k wrote:
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As a #nochanges person, my knee-jerk response is no. However, coming from playing Eve Online, which pioneered this idea, I have only seen good things come from introducing this into a game. Most importantly it makes sure that real life cash is directed towards the game creators rather than botters/farmers. Since most of the best gear is bop raid gear/battleground rewards, which can't be directly purchased with gold, this won't make the game much more play2win than it already is. (Yes there will be groups that have instances on farm, running people through for gold, but there will always be gold sellers. Since this will happen anyway, I prefer that cash go to Blizzard). If they can make enough this way to justify keeping the game otherwise as it is, without micro-transactions, then this is a huge win. Of course they will probably get greedy and try for both, but I will take this over micro-transactions any day, even if it does mess with the economy a bit. Free markets have a way of balancing themselves out anyway.

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Nayami wrote:
5 months ago
As a #nochanges person, my knee-jerk response is no. However, coming from playing Eve Online, which pioneered this idea, I have only seen good things come from introducing this into a game. Most importantly it makes sure that real life cash is directed towards the game creators rather than botters/farmers. Since most of the best gear is bop raid gear/battleground rewards, which can't be directly purchased with gold, this won't make the game much more play2win than it already is. (Yes there will be groups that have instances on farm, running people through for gold, but there will always be gold sellers. Since this will happen anyway, I prefer that cash go to Blizzard). If they can make enough this way to justify keeping the game otherwise as it is, without micro-transactions, then this is a huge win. Of course they will probably get greedy and try for both, but I will take this over micro-transactions any day, even if it does mess with the economy a bit. Free markets have a way of balancing themselves out anyway.
He gets it. I think this is exactly the case. "Knee-jerk responses". That seems to be the theme I'm seeing when reading posts by people who are anti token. A lot of them don't seem to have any idea how it works or what it does. Eve definitely pioneered this idea with great success. In one of the previous interviews I linked with a major gold broker during WotLK, the Eve token is mentioned. I spent a lot of time linking old articles to establish the prevalence of gold buying and selling during this time period. A lot of people misunderstood the effort I put into establishing the size of that market. My aim wasn't to prove that gold farming existed, rather to shed some light on how enormous that market was. The game was always pay to win.

g0bledyg00k wrote:
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Despite discussions that have taken place, and sources have been providing stating the benefits of tokens vs. the detriment of gold farming/bots, everyone has their opinion on whether they would prefer WoW Token, or whether people are happy to rely on Blizzard anti-bot, anti-gold selling technology to minimise the impact, while obviously accepting it can never be truly stopped. Simple poll to get a consensus of peoples personal opinions.

I have allowed re-voting, as I see this topic creating a lot of discussion and fluctuating opinions.

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No. Gold is actually worth something in Classic. I'd like to keep it that way, if possible. I realize gold sellers and bots are going to exist, but that's Blizzard's problem to solve. The token makes sense in retail because A) people are rich beyond imagination and B) Gold isn't very important in retail.

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I’m all for it. It does put a huge strain on gold farmers. Doesn’t change my experience one bit.

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Marxman wrote:
5 months ago
No. Gold is actually worth something in Classic. I'd like to keep it that way, if possible. I realize gold sellers and bots are going to exist, but that's Blizzard's problem to solve. The token makes sense in retail because A) people are rich beyond imagination and B) Gold isn't very important in retail.
I firstly want to say that I don't want tokens in Classic, however farmers/bots also creates gold which causes inflation. If bots/farmers only farmed materials this wouldn't happen, but they are in fact also farming RAW gold, which creates inflation. So tokens or not, inflation will always happen.

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