So, having lurked the ClassicWow subreddit for a lot of time and watching a lot of videos and stuff about classic, you come to think that Ret Paladins and Druids are almost worthless classes. Me myself thought the same way and didn't even consider playing those two.
Some days ago tho, I decided to join RetroWow to test which class I liked better and what would I main (it's hunter!) and I ended up discovering that nor ret pallys or druids are useless. Sure, they may be a bit worse, especially retris but it's not like they are npcs. After getting my ass destroyed by a few retri and boomies I can say that atleast in PvP, I don't feel like there's a class that is above all or that there are classes that are completely useless, as those posts and videos make out to be.

My only conclusion to get out of this is to just main whatever the fuck you want and don't give a shit about what the videos say.

Yes! That's exactly it. Player will not care about effectiveness of any class if he simply doesnt like it. After 20-30 levels he will just reroll to what he actually likes.

So, as Oderlods said, do not pick your class by its effectiveness in pve/pvp. Pick what you like to play/love to main/have strong feeling about/enjoy the lore. You will be far better with the class you like to play. :)

s1atan wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Yes! That's exactly it. Player will not care about effectiveness of any class if he simply doesnt like it. After 20-30 levels he will just reroll to what he actually likes.

So, as Oderlods said, do not pick your class by its effectiveness in pve/pvp. Pick what you like to play/love to main/have strong feeling about/enjoy the lore. You will be far better with the class you like to play. :)

Very well put... I see so many posts of people wanting to roll a pala or a druid but being afraid they will be forced to heal. Unless you are in a min/max guild I don't think anyone will give a shit about that and if you PvP just flat out don't worry about that. Every class will be competitive. Sure, there will be some classes that will stand out in certain situations but I'm sure every class has that:)

In the end, Vanilla is not about minmaxing.

I am pretty sure we will be seeing a fair amount of minmaxers who choose their class purely based on its late-game potential; this a trend that has been around in retail for quite a few expansions now, with people switching mains even after major patches just so they are playing the #1 dps/heaer/tank class for that respective content patch.
However, I also think that some people who opt to go for that approach are going to regret doing so...mostly because leveling in Classic takes quite a bit of time and patience, ultimately requiring a stronger personal commitment to their first character as their is now easy way of pushing themselves or getting boosted.

Faendor wrote: ↑

6 years ago

In the end, Vanilla is not about minmaxing.

I might want to add to that:

..., Vanilla is not a race, it's a marathon.
And playing a class that is only going to get good and fun to play past T2 is not something I would advice anyone to do.

You might call it a trend but minmaxing mentality was always here once you got familiar with a game. Setting new goals and beating higher difficulties is a common process of evolution. For those who seek to minmax and tryhard I would suggest a different game as it would imo bring them more joy then going through the same game over and over with faster speedruns etc. Classic wow is a project brought back for a different reason then just maximizing our raiding/pvp performance.

Faendor wrote: ↑

6 years ago

You might call it a trend but minmaxing mentality was always here once you got familiar with a game. Setting new goals and beating higher difficulties is a common process of evolution. For those who seek to minmax and tryhard I would suggest a different game as it would imo bring them more joy then going through the same game over and over with faster speedruns etc. Classic wow is a project brought back for a different reason then just maximizing our raiding/pvp performance.

I agree, it was always there to some degree but I feel like it has increased lately. Nowadays the most popular games are all about competition and multiplayer pvp. Of course there are storylines and PvE games but even some of them lead to minmaxing to achieve the best of the best that is possible.
That's what has me worried. When I was 12 or whatever playing Wotlk I didn't give two shits about minmaxing, but today when I played retail I wanted to have the best possible items and the best possible DPS.
I'm excited to start in classic without any guides or looking up race/class combinations, just enjoying the game. You can obviously do this in retail too but the feeling is different, if you want to get into M+ and shit and your class is bottom tier you will have a very hard time getting into groups.

Oderlods wrote: ↑

6 years ago

if you want to get into M+ and shit and your class is bottom tier you will have a very hard time getting into groups.

true, and sad at the same time.
luckily there is no hc/m+ crap in Classic!;) and every class has its use.

I am actually starting to hate the word 'min-max'.

It has such a negative connotations and I think that people apply it to the wrong scenarios these days.

First of all, what is wrong with wanting to be good at the game. Sure, to agree with @Oderlods, there is very little difference between classes and races but people should still be able to make informed decisions and feel free to try to play to their very best.

Any time you see someone talking about efficiency or extra performance on the classic subreddit for example, the post is either downvoted into oblivion or the OP gets abuse for being an evil 'min-maxer'. So fucking what? Let people play how they want to play you know...

There isn't much of a difference between top and bottom classes, it's true. Even base stat differences for different combinations, which I know intimately now having built a javascript tool around them, make for very small differences in performance. THAT SAID, I still think people shouldn't be demonised for wanting to exploit those small advantages where they do exist.

I agree with that you should play whatever and however you want if that gives you joy.

I don’t think anyone needs to worry about defending their race or spec as enjoyment come release. A lot of newcomers won’t look before they leap and there will be more human and elf priests than dwarf just as in vanilla.

High end dedicated gamers will have their own guilds and casuals in another. It seems like a lot of “min-maxing” because that’s often who loves the game enough to talk about it ages before it comes out.

I myself am going to play an optimal spec and race but it isn’t a sacrifice to do so. I enjoy just about everything about the character and am happy to do so. And I’m glad not everyone will be playing it, but not because I want to lord it over anyone: just because I enjoy seeing a wide variety in the player base. Wouldn’t it be sad if there were no dwarf priests same as if there were no night elf priests? I know it would be strange to me.

I agree with you @teebling, everyone can enjoy the game as they please. I just fear that everyone will have this "minmax" mentality, kinda like in retail now. With no achivs there won't be shit like that hopefully lol

That's why we need new MMOs :D

I would like to add a bit of realism to this discussion with the best of intentions, feel free to disagree.

I decided to join RetroWow

A server on patch 1.12 which gives you an instant level 60 character with dungeon set 1 and all the blue dungeon items available (some of which are BiS over many raid tiers) where raids are tuned to be like 5-man dungeons. I don't want to sound mean but that's really not a valid point of view.

I just fear that everyone will have this "minmax" mentality, kinda like in retail now.

I don't think most people understand what min/maxing actually is or what it actually looks like. The way I see it, there is absolutely no difference between

* threads where people pat each other on the back that ret paladins can be relevant because Esfand says so or that oomkins can do well for 10 seconds before they run out of mana and that's why you can totally clear all the content up to Naxx.

* threads where people pat each other on the back that the .5% improvement in simulated DPS they got from some ancient Nost forum post is totally going to make a difference while they totally clear all content up to Naxx

Asking you to play your best raiding spec is not min/maxing. Asking you to play your best raiding spec, bring the best consumables every raid, farm enough gold to buy the best epics on the AH, to have all your gear enchanted, etc etc is min/maxing.

You guys don't really have a problem with min/maxing. Since when have people on the internet stopped you from having fun and playing what you want in that game? The real problem you guys have is with being included in raids and that's because you're approaching it from a very skewed angle.

-continuing-

You are free to play whatever you want and have fun the way you see fit, but when you're considering joining a raid you have to consider that there's 39 other people working for the same goal.

Raiding isn't always fun. A lot of times it's frustrating, gold-consuming, boring and downright depressing. The ups go as high as the lowest lows, this game is not a theme park, not always. Yes, we like walking through the barrens for hours but that's because there's a quest we need to do somewhere, a reward at the end of it, some progression we're after. I love doing dungeons as much as the next fellow, but when I'm doing UBRS for the 10th time and I just got my Reed, I'm only finishing the dungeon as a sign of respect for the others not because I actually have any reason to waste another hour there.

So with that being said, most raiders understand that they will have to put up with things they don't want. Warlocks will farm shards before the raid, mages will spam food/water to trade with the whole raid for 10 minutes straight, warriors pay big repair bills and have to know every pull, healers have to accept not being able to farm much in their raiding spec. Raid Leaders, Class Leads and Officers usually put in a lot of work to prepare the raids with little to no benefit involved - other than a guaranteed raid spot which they likely could've earned on their own.

We all accept a certain spec and often times boring rotation for the benefit of the group as a whole, not because we're so terribly excited about spamming one button rotations but because we know that's the key to our victory as a group. If everyone started thinking otherwise, we wouldn't even have a raid.

Of course we can clear all the content on the way to Naxx with an oomkin in the group. But just because we can theoretically do it doesn't mean we should want to do it, or will want to do it. Letting you in without a good argument as to why it benefits the raid as a whole could have dire consequences on the entire raid and I'll explain why.

-continuing-

1. Authority.

It's a given that people will have to do certain things they don't like in order to raid. because when things go wrong, people will look for others to blame and they will look at the weakest link in the group - even if it's not their fault at all - and then, next to the niche and underpeforming specs will be the Raid Leader who allowed this to happen in the first place and, in their eyes, keeps allowing this to happen by bringing niche specs around. From then onwards, it's just a matter of time until drama erupts and the whole raid team's stability is in danger. People will only respect the Raid Leader's authority and decisions so long they make sense and are successful towards accomplishing objectives. If something goes bad and someone brings an objective argument as to why it's because of the odd one in the group, his persistence will be seen as being a sign of irrationality or worse - due to some ulterior motive.

2. Relationship among members of the raid group.

Bonding between raid members happens both during victory but also during times of struggle, which is why it is very important that the effort people put in is both proportional with the expected reward or try to make that effort be as homogenized as possible. Someone from the same class who is under-performing is often treated with respect by the better performing players because they tend to blame the lack of performance on:

* inferior gear and consumables
* skill and experience
* RNG

But these are all things which can be addressed in time. If they are are playing the same spec, abiding by the same rules and mindset, then they will be alright sharing loot together.

Someone who is playing a sub-optimal spec for "fun" is seen as someone who just doesn't care enough about the group as a whole. Others will look at you with disdain because you potential isn't limited by anything our group/raid/leadership can actually provide, but rather that they see you as being limited by your own arrogance and selfish interest.

3. It lowers the bar.

When you're hoping to clear 4-5 raids a week, you will need people to be on their top game so you can stack as many raids as you can in order to get as much loot as you need. By letting someone who's just there to have fun raid without any sort of reasonable justification, it sends a message to the other raiders that they needn't care that much about performance - and why should they? If Johnny can come in and do 150 DPS, why should I bother wasting 3-4 hours of my life to do 400 DPS when I could just do 350 DPS just fine.

People are naturally lazy, they will want the most rewards for the least effort and they will always travel the path of least resistance. If you show them that you can make it as a damage dealer in your raid team with 150 DPS, I guarantee you that others will follow in the mindset I just described. It's not fair to put them in a position where they feel like they're carrying so they need to stop caring so much because the Raid Leader has obviously stopped caring about the DPS and so forth.

So yes, do play whatever spec and race you feel is best but be aware that the decision to include you in any raid group is more than just numbers, there's a lot of psychology involved. WoW is more than just numbers. Some people will be fine carrying a bit, others won't. Some people will judge you for being selfish, others won't. Making sure everyone is around the same level of effort, involvement, skill, etc. is not just a technical requirement in order to accomplish certain tasks, it's also a matter of compatibility. You don't want to be in a raid with people who will judge you for what you chose to play, maybe they don't want to be in a raid with someone who isn't at least trying to be as useful as they can for the raid.

What I'm saying is that these things are real and there is nothing you or I can do to stop them. Even people who might say they're not judging you like that, might be lying. Be who you want to be but do not expect to be accepted everywhere, and don't think that the reason is just numerically prejudiced against your choice. Personally, I don't see how it's not fun to be useful to the raid. I'm thankful that every class has a use in this game in every activity out there.

@Nymis I read your posts and I agree wholeheartedly with the essence of what you are saying. Ultimately players will be selected for raids based on the value they bring to the collective group. In other words they have to provide a value-added service.

That being said, a mature mindset within the leadership ranks would be one that understands how to strike a balance when selecting people. Understanding that there is an overlap in skills that classes bring and making sound judgements on raid comps requires the leadership to acknowledge that minmaxing on an individual level, not entirely on a raid composition level, is the key to attracting the best player base and ultimately achieving success in progression. There is enough of a tolerance or “grey area” between classes that allows for a diverse arrangement of viable raid comps.

Ending thought: Do play what you feel you would enjoy the most, whether that enjoyment is derived from play style or from the community demand aspect. But make no mistake that your choices will come with inherent pros and cons socially within the community. Consider them when making your choice.

@Nymis All great points however, I feel that the difference between optimal spec and optimal race is huge.

For one thing, for 50g you can change your spec whenever you like. Asking for a spec to be in the guild makes sense. Having the right spec can be a big increase in performance.

However in the case of people asking for specific races, the most doable is to get all human fury warriors and sword rogues, but after that it becomes either silly because the increase in performance isn’t enough to turn down good players with high attendance, or the class combination is too scarce in the wild to guarantee homogeneity of a specific race.

There are a lot of good reasons to roll a race you prefer the look and feel of considering the time investment involved, but none at all for showing up specced full shadow when you’re supposed to be holy specced like the raid leader specified.

Might you get turned down as a human or gear priority is given to the dwarf? Yeah, it might happen. If the other player is considered more essential, they will be incentivized to stay. You just need to know this and accept it beforehand that you are getting what you want (race over utility). Some people don’t have to choose, and I’m glad because it’s an agonizing decision.

@Linguine I agree, the race thing is pretty silly. I posted this comment in another thread, but I think it's relevant here as well.

I think there's a lot of leisure room between "min/maxing" and full random/yolo/casual/etc.

It's not just about the server first race or anything. Some things will fly, other things won't. If by min/max you mean that you expect to find a raid spot as a SP/oomkin/ench/etc. then yeah, you are likely not. This is partly due to the limitations of the game (debuff slots, spell resistance etc.) but also due to the attitude you're carrying. If everyone signing up for a raid team was a "special snowflake" who cared more about individual fun than what the whole raid was doing then we wouldn't get anywhere. Sometimes you have to suck it up and do things that you might not want to do for the good of the raid - that's why knowing your class ahead of time is important.

So to sum it up:

• if it's about spec, then yes - I reckon 90% of the players will min/max their spec
• if it's about gear, then about 70-90% are going to min/max their gear - about 10-30% of the player base either won't know how to do that, won't have the time to do that, won't have the skill or luck to do that
• if it's about professions, then about 50-70% are going to min/max that as well, there will be a significant portion of players taking professions for personal profits and fun, but the vast majority is going to be leveling professions which are in some form or another significant to them
• if it's about race, I reckon about 20-40% of the players will make a significant decision (i.e. one they would not normally make) based on their race - most players honestly care about the visuals first more than anything (and then tell you how their favorite race is "objectively" the best), the passives can be extremely good but everything can basically be done by everyone at any point in the game (obtaining R14 as UD Warlock, PvE raiding as a NE priest, etc.)
• if it's about about faction - only 5-10% of the players will min/max their faction, usually the tryhards who want to have an easier time in high-end raiding or PvP

And in my opinion, if you're better than average (top 50%) you're eligible for just about any sort of content in this game. Race/faction will never significantly hinder you, but professions/gear/spec definitely will.

There is enough of a tolerance or “grey area” between classes that allows for a diverse arrangement of viable raid comps.

Yeah but like I said, it's one thing to raid knowing that some people are better than others at playing their spec because they just haven't practiced enough and another to raid knowing that little Timmy is doing half the damage everyone else is doing just because he likes to pew-pew instead of pow-pow.

And if the Raid Leader permits that, then either everyone must agree with it or there must be some grand-scheme of things motive in mind, otherwise he's biased and it doesn't look well on paper.

It's easy. In the endgame the players filter pretty much automatically. Casual players will be in casual minded guilds/playing solo and more hardcore players will be in hardcore guilds because they would not like to be in casual guild. There will be many more options (semi casual, semi hardcore, so on :D) in classic so there is no point to be scared somebody woudnt find his/her spot in classic. :)

I agree @Nymis. Fair points all well made. Now give that wrist a rest.

As @s1atan said, people will naturally fall into their 'place' over time. Not to pigeon hole people, but you're just better off in an environment that fits your own play style. If I'm a casual, I'm not going to expect to be carried along in a serious raiding guild, just as I wouldn't expect them to be ok with doing so.

Another point of view is that if you have limited time, and want to experience as much content as possible, you just want to be relatively effective in what you do. I'd rather prepare for a raid and have an easy time than wiping on an encounter numerous times that would be a cake walk if people would do at least some preparation. A few hours of preparation might save you many hours of wiping and drama.

Wrekk wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Another point of view is that if you have limited time, and want to experience as much content as possible, you just want to be relatively effective in what you do. I'd rather prepare for a raid and have an easy time than wiping on an encounter numerous times that would be a cake walk if people would do at least some preparation. A few hours of preparation might save you many hours of wiping and drama.

Yes, I definitely believe that everyone should independently decide for what character he wants to play. It's up to everybody how they spend their time.

Also after some consideration I decided to roll Tauren hunter, instead of orc/troll, even when its subpar combo. I just love their lore, appearance, way of life and kodos. :)