Druid Feral
User avatar
EU Gehennas
Posts: 131
Likes: 74
Tauren
Druid
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Nymis wrote:
3 months ago
There's nothing wrong about not knowing something / anything about the game just as there's nothing wrong with not knowing much about your first job for instance - even with or without a prior college education for instance, 99/100 times you'll know just about nothing about your first job.
The comparison shows exactly how some people view this game. Nevertheless, I agree wholeheartedly with the point you are making.
Nymis wrote:
3 months ago
The problem is when you're confronted with advice on how to do better and you refuse to take it. Ignorance really is a choice in this time and age, I might've understood reasons for it 15 years ago but I think the problem of "new players just don't have time/ability to learn that fast" is bollocks.
To me, personally, it's not about ignorance. It's about not letting other peoples knowledge dictate my own personal experience.
I see a significant difference between learning from experience and logical deduction rather than following advice.

A person who just does whatever they are told is best, simply because it's an accepted path, will not ever come to a higher understanding of why they should do things a certain way. This is applicable to just about anything you're ever going to do. The way you study, the way you work, the way you play.

If everybody always followed instructions, there would be no progress in anything and we wouldn't have BiS lists or optimized specs. I'm not saying these players will revolutionize the way we play, it's just my general opinion on how to approach.. well, anything.
Nymis wrote:
3 months ago
It's genuinely just one rotation, a list of items and a talent build. If you can copy and paste that from whatever document your raid lead/class lead/internet gives you then you can basically stop using the "new player" as an excuse afterwards.
You are correct, of course, if players that can spam one rotation and know their BiS list is what you want.
I'd prefer players that have a deep understanding of their class and it's abilities because they chose experience over instruction.


All of this being said, everyone has their preference on how to approach the game. I think it's clear where yours and mine differ.
I'm just saying we shouldn't force either preference on other players.

Image
Warlock Destruction
User avatar
EU Firemaw
Posts: 292
Likes: 337
Undead
Warlock
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Rinkusan wrote:
3 months ago
It doesn't matter what environment you play in, if you accept a player into your community, they are part of your community. In a community, you don't demand uniformity & you don't throw blame around. You work together constructively and find ways to achieve success together.
I don't know where you're getting these funny ideas about managing communities from.

In a community you demand uniformity in certain regards. You can't be a citizen of France if you don't have French citizenship. You can't be a member of a company if you're not hired there based on some criteria. You can't be part of a fandom community if you don't share an active interest in whatever fandom you're trying to be part of - so on and so forth.

You demand "uniformity" through a set of minimum criteria which enable you to define that group in the first place.

As for "throwing blame around" - you are no wiser if you think that sitting around and saying it was no one's fault, nothing was to blame, no one has any responsibility in this and so forth. There are actions, responsibilities, tasks which need to be done and of course there are consequences for not doing them. You lose your citizenship if you do bad things. You get fired if you fail to complete your tasks. You are rejected from a fandom community for misbehaving or whatever reason those people decide they no longer want to associate with you.

I suggest you depart from these silly ideas about management and take a good realistic look around you. Even you, with your guild, will not be taking anyone under level 60. You won't be taking people who troll or say bad things to other people. Whatever it is, however you want to put it, you are creating a uniform standard of acceptance into your guild group / raid group / community. It just so happens that other people's standards prioritize more objective and quantifiable matters (like numbers, gear, attendance, builds etc.) than yours (trying, being nice, etc.)

Druid Feral
User avatar
EU Gehennas
Posts: 131
Likes: 74
Tauren
Druid
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Nymis wrote:
3 months ago
Rinkusan wrote:
3 months ago
In my experience players that run with alternative builds try much harder and are often the more consistent and better players.
Yeah but this isn't "World of Tryingcraft", at the end of the day it's a game of numbers in a community of people.

[...]
I also stated this:
"A player who insists on playing a build that is still ineffective even when optimized as well as geared and played correctly, is a parasite."

   Nymis
Image
Warlock Destruction
User avatar
EU Firemaw
Posts: 292
Likes: 337
Undead
Warlock
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

It seems we're on a similar page and I misunderstood. Apologies if I offended you with anything.

Druid Feral
User avatar
EU Gehennas
Posts: 131
Likes: 74
Tauren
Druid
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

No offense taken. Discussion is what a Forum is for, after all.

I'd challenge you on your "middle" post, though :)

Nymis wrote:
3 months ago
Rinkusan wrote:
3 months ago
It doesn't matter what environment you play in, if you accept a player into your community, they are part of your community. In a community, you don't demand uniformity & you don't throw blame around. You work together constructively and find ways to achieve success together.
I don't know where you're getting these funny ideas about managing communities from.

In a community you demand uniformity in certain regards. You can't be a citizen of France if you don't have French citizenship. You can't be a member of a company if you're not hired there based on some criteria. You can't be part of a fandom community if you don't share an active interest in whatever fandom you're trying to be part of - so on and so forth.
  • The governments of most nations don't demand you are a citizen in order for you to be part of the "community" that is that nation. They are completely fine with you being a citizen anywhere else, but still living and working in among them, if you pay your taxes. The nation comparison is more suited to server choice, I think.
  • A company hires you based on criteria, of course, you either fill a role they have a need for, or they see potential in your pitch. The second - admittedly - happens less, as you take a risk as a company. If neither is the case, they will not hire you, why would they. Nothing I would ever dispute, though I fail to see how that undermines my own arguments. The same is completely true for a Raid Team, except the risk of giving someone a try is much lower.
  • Saying you need to have an interest in something in order to be part of the fandom community for it, is very thin on the "uniformity" argument. It's a prerequisite that is my choice entirely. If I don't have an interest in the matter, why the hell would I want to be part of the community?

Prerequisites like .. playing the same game, being able to communicate via the same language, playing on the same server and faction, etc.. are not uniformity, the are prerequisites that can and will in most cases be completely incidental. (I don't think a majority of players already looks for their guild before launch, might be wrong though.)

I'd say the things that come together when you join a raid team (and they are completely the same a joining a company) are:
  • You meet the prerequisites
  • You meet a need of the Raid Team in question
  • Your pitch meets the leaderships expectations
  • The leaderships pitch meets your expectations

The last two points are completely subjective. As has become clear from our discussion, the two of us would clearly handle that differently.

Image
Druid Feral
User avatar
EU Gehennas
Posts: 131
Likes: 74
Tauren
Druid
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Nymis wrote:
3 months ago
As for "throwing blame around" - you are no wiser if you think that sitting around and saying it was no one's fault, nothing was to blame, no one has any responsibility in this and so forth. There are actions, responsibilities, tasks which need to be done and of course there are consequences for not doing them. You lose your citizenship if you do bad things. You get fired if you fail to complete your tasks. You are rejected from a fandom community for misbehaving or whatever reason those people decide they no longer want to associate with you.
I'm not saying there is no problem. But Identifying and constructively discussing issues is the more civilized form, can you agree?

Example:
"omg wtf why are we still running with a Bear tank that gets two shot all the time? Kick him from the raid already! This is a waste of time and consumables!"

vs.

"I think on this particular fight, since the boss uses Mortal Strike and hits quite hard overall, it would be better to have it tanked by a warrior, because he can't be crit or crushed. It will be easier to handle for us healers. Or do you suppose we need the higher threat generation?"

A little gold star if you can already tell which boss I'm talking about, he really did 2 Shot my Bear :D

Image
Teldrassil
User avatar
EU Firemaw
Posts: 433
Likes: 208
Alliance
Priest
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

@Rinkusan Was that Broodlord Lashlayer?

Faendur, the Creepy Dwarf
Warlock Destruction
User avatar
EU Firemaw
Posts: 292
Likes: 337
Undead
Warlock
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Rinkusan wrote:
3 months ago
The governments of most nations don't demand you are a citizen in order for you to be part of the "community" that is that nation
It does if you want to be part of the community of individuals with citizenship - which allows you to have more rights than a regular person would have who'd be just visiting there for instance. If you want to be part of the community of people who are just visiting then yeah, all you need to do is basically visit in order to be considered a "tourist".
Rinkusan wrote:
3 months ago
Nothing I would ever dispute, though I fail to see how that undermines my own arguments.
Because earlier you were saying that " In a community, you don't demand uniformity & you don't throw blame around. "

Companies basically do that - there are some uniform standards that most people have to abide by, in terms of say work hours, leave days, tasks to complete etc etc. And if tasks don't get completed, it usually is something or someone's fault - whether the manager's, the average worker, bad weather you name it.
Rinkusan wrote:
3 months ago
Prerequisites like .. playing the same game, being able to communicate via the same language, playing on the same server and faction, etc.. are not uniformity, the are prerequisites that can and will in most cases be completely incidental. (I don't think a majority of players already looks for their guild before launch, might be wrong though.)
All the same, and any of those can be hypothetically challenged on any level by anyone else. You can have guildies who don't play the game, people who don't play on the same server but contribute somehow, so on and so forth. It's a matter of choosing what standards matter to you and your overall objective.

I just know from dealing with people / raids that if you don't try and make sure that everyone is at a bare minimum level of effort then people will eventually get angry and leave if things don't go their way. I'm not talking about assholes who would've left either way or immature entitled cunts here - no, people with potential to do good things for your guild and raid leaving because they feel they could integrate better with another community strictly because they felt their side of the effort was disproportionate to the effort of others - i.e. carrying noobs for instance.

When you're asking people to do things for the greater good of the raid/ guild, things they would not normally do on an individual level (like playing boring specs, rotations, farming consumables etc.) it goes a long way to show them that:

a) the management is not corrupt (does not show favoritism towards certain players, takes rational and objective judgment, listens to criticism, takes actions that benefit the collective above their own personal interests etc.)
b) others are pulling their weight and not slacking off their work (that there is no disproportionate effort on any side)
c) rewards are proportional with the role and effort they put in (if there is disproportionate effort on any side, then it is mandated by an objective need and rewarded proportionally by the spoils obtained at the end of our engagement)
Rinkusan wrote:
3 months ago
I'm not saying there is no problem. But Identifying and constructively discussing issues is the more civilized form, can you agree?
Yeah but this is the kind of discussion which has to happen BEFORE the raid starts as to avoid frustration.

If you know - or have any indication - that this is what's going to happen and you are risking the raid wiping, getting frustrated and so forth on the whims of a person who wants to be a tank for a fight, then you're setting yourself for some real trouble.

Rogue Assassination
User avatar
Posts: 114
Likes: 52
Horde
Warlock
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

The truth is they are pretty useless in comparison to other classes. An Oomkin isn't as BAD as it's portrayed to be but it is it as good as X? No. - Should you play it if you want to play it? Yes.

Exceptional players will always find a place in things like ranking, pve etc and if you're not exceptional it doesn't matter what class you pick anyway

Warrior Fury
User avatar
US Fairbanks
Posts: 1073
Likes: 716
Gnome
Warrior
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Raven wrote:
3 months ago
The truth is they are pretty useless in comparison to other classes. An Oomkin isn't as BAD as it's portrayed to be but it is it as good as X? No. - Should you play it if you want to play it? Yes.

Exceptional players will always find a place in things like ranking, pve etc and if you're not exceptional it doesn't matter what class you pick anyway
I agree to an extent but would argue that the exceptional outlier specs should actually be reserved for exceptional players. If you are a casual player and have no interest in min/maxxing or mastering your class/spec, you should not begin the journey of becoming a meme. Many of these meme players are SUPER opposed to min/maxxers, but the reality of most of these meme specs, is that you will need to min/max (likely more than anyone else) just so that you are able to maintain some level of relevance.

This only matters if you intend on playing with others in group content. If you have no aspirations of interacting with others and will spend the bulk of your time questing and leveling, be whatever you want, it won't matter to anyone anyways.

Druid Feral
User avatar
OC Yojamba
Posts: 899
Likes: 712
Tauren
Druid
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Stfuppercut wrote:
3 months ago
If you have no aspirations of interacting with others and will spend the bulk of your time questing and leveling, be whatever you want, it won't matter to anyone anyways.

:biggrin:

ImageImage Lvl 45
ImageImage Lvl 35
Alterac Valley
User avatar
Posts: 10
Likes: 5
Alliance
Rogue
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

My first Diablo 2 character was a paladin, my first WoW character was a paladin (horde in tbc), the first class i started playing in Hearthstone was a Paladin. Definitely going to main Paladin again in vanilla. Also never really thought about it but ive been playing blizzard games my entire life! i was pretty blown that they renamed paladin to Crusader in diablo 3.

Originally i was going to go dwarf for the racials but after playing around with charater creations i decided i really dont like the dwarf models and im probably gonna role human female

Warrior Fury
User avatar
US Fairbanks
Posts: 1073
Likes: 716
Gnome
Warrior
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

RavagerAffinity wrote:
3 months ago
My first Diablo 2 character was a paladin, my first WoW character was a paladin (horde in tbc), the first class i started playing in Hearthstone was a Paladin. Definitely going to main Paladin again in vanilla. Also never really thought about it but ive been playing blizzard games my entire life! i was pretty blown that they renamed paladin to Crusader in diablo 3.

Originally i was going to go dwarf for the racials but after playing around with charater creations i decided i really dont like the dwarf models and im probably gonna role human female
Yet your profile indicates you will be a rogue... Is this some sort of rogue trick? A distraction perhaps?

   Faendor Rinkusan Sauva
Druid Feral
User avatar
EU Gehennas
Posts: 131
Likes: 74
Tauren
Druid
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Faendor wrote:
3 months ago
@Rinkusan Was that Broodlord Lashlayer?
It was indeed :D

Image
User avatar
Posts: 74
Likes: 35
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

I get the whole "play what you want" thing but ret paladins are cringe and no one wants to raid with a guy playing an intentionally subpar spec, it's rude to the rest of the raid and is essentially broadcasting "I'm going to fuck around while you guys play serious, please carry me for months until I get fed enough gear to be useful".

Ret paladins are not good unless severely geared (requires much much much more gear than other classes to be decent), it's wrong to give good gear that could go to a warrior to a ret paladin. Thankfully most people have wised up and ret paladins will only be played in bad guilds or guilds where they circlejerk with a guild master, no good guilds will allow them because paladins are one of the best healing classes in the game and it's a waste to have them play ret when other classes can do their job much better with a lot less gear. It also makes your guild look bad if people know you take ret paladins to raid.

   Stfuppercut
Badlands
User avatar
EU Flamelash
Posts: 293
Likes: 120
Horde
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Swans wrote:
3 months ago
I get the whole "play what you want" thing but ret paladins are cringe and no one wants to raid with a guy playing an intentionally subpar spec, it's rude to the rest of the raid and is essentially broadcasting "I'm going to fuck around while you guys play serious, please carry me for months until I get fed enough gear to be useful".

Ret paladins are not good unless severely geared (requires much much much more gear than other classes to be decent), it's wrong to give good gear that could go to a warrior to a ret paladin. Thankfully most people have wised up and ret paladins will only be played in bad guilds or guilds where they circlejerk with a guild master, no good guilds will allow them because paladins are one of the best healing classes in the game and it's a waste to have them play ret when other classes can do their job much better with a lot less gear. It also makes your guild look bad if people know you take ret paladins to raid.
*Caperfin kicks in the door.

I've experienced a different mindset on pservers. Nearly everyone agrees the game is TOO easy and desperately impose challenges on themselves to make it harder or spice things up a bit like Speedruns. I've seen everything from guilds bringing paladin tanks to raid or the heart pounding and intense warlock raid tanking. The difference between a Discord with a warrior tanking and a warlock tanking is night and day. Its super thrilling! The tryhard/hardcore guilds are actually the ones that do unconventional stuff.

If the difference between a dead and alive boss is 1-2 people going non meta stuff there are bigger underlying issues.

In regards to ret, check out Spelladin its LITERALLY revolutionary.

   Rinkusan Psojed
Image  Image  Image  Image
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/caperfin
Ashenvale
User avatar
Posts: 270
Likes: 160
Alliance
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Caperfin wrote:
3 months ago
Swans wrote:
3 months ago
I get the whole "play what you want" thing but ret paladins are cringe and no one wants to raid with a guy playing an intentionally subpar spec, it's rude to the rest of the raid and is essentially broadcasting "I'm going to fuck around while you guys play serious, please carry me for months until I get fed enough gear to be useful".

Ret paladins are not good unless severely geared (requires much much much more gear than other classes to be decent), it's wrong to give good gear that could go to a warrior to a ret paladin. Thankfully most people have wised up and ret paladins will only be played in bad guilds or guilds where they circlejerk with a guild master, no good guilds will allow them because paladins are one of the best healing classes in the game and it's a waste to have them play ret when other classes can do their job much better with a lot less gear. It also makes your guild look bad if people know you take ret paladins to raid.
*Caperfin kicks in the door.

I've experienced a different mindset on pservers. Nearly everyone agrees the game is TOO easy and desperately impose challenges on themselves to make it harder or spice things up a bit like Speedruns. I've seen everything from guilds bringing paladin tanks to raid or the heart pounding and intense warlock raid tanking. The difference between a Discord with a warrior tanking and a warlock tanking is night and day. Its super thrilling! The tryhard/hardcore guilds are actually the ones that do unconventional stuff.

If the difference between a dead and alive boss is 1-2 people going non meta stuff there are bigger underlying issues.

In regards to ret, check out Spelladin its LITERALLY revolutionary.
That's very nice that the dozens of other people in a hardcore guild all agree they have extra time to burn trying out sub-optimal specs in their raids because they have all rolled fresh so many times that they need new excitement.

For everyone else, we have better things to do than babysit ret pallies with raid dreams. The raids are already exciting during progress, and I want to go outside the raid and spend time picking herbs, mining ore, hitting that guy trying to take my nodes, hit up Warsong Gulch, spend time IRL with family and friends, cook, have hobbies besides WoW, etc. when they're on farm. Ideally, do all that even when they're on progress too.

The rest of my raid might even want to also. Don't get me wrong, I'm still getting world buffs, consumes, pre-raid BiS, showing up to the raid on time, and doing my best to top the meters, but I expect everyone else to be too so that they don't waste my time. A Ret Pally's best is being hybrid spec and putting on a dress to heal while they wait to get their PvP gear, not pretending that they rolled something they're not.

Advertising to the semi-casuals who frequent this forum that they can be whatever they want is misleading. Approval to play these specs would normally be happening on a guild forum for a player who has already proven themselves.

   Stfuppercut
Druid Feral
User avatar
OC Yojamba
Posts: 899
Likes: 712
Tauren
Druid
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

People dictating one way or another what someone should play is bullshit. Provide advice on playstyle, on viability and whether it is optimal. Don't try to force players to conform to the masses. If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.

Read. Make your own decisions, do your own theorycraft, try new things out, or follow an optimal guide for the simple minded. Whatever makes you happy makes you happy. If you want to cruise through 14 year old content following someone else's rules, that's your prerogative, but don't shit on people who don't enjoy the game the same way you do. Each to their own. Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.

   Rinkusan Faendor
ImageImage Lvl 45
ImageImage Lvl 35
Ashenvale
User avatar
Posts: 270
Likes: 160
Alliance
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

Selexin wrote:
3 months ago
People dictating one way or another what someone should play is bullshit. Provide advice on playstyle, on viability and whether it is optimal. Don't try to force players to conform to the masses. If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.

Read. Make your own decisions, do your own theorycraft, try new things out, or follow an optimal guide for the simple minded. Whatever makes you happy makes you happy. If you want to cruise through 14 year old content following someone else's rules, that's your prerogative, but don't shit on people who don't enjoy the game the same way you do. Each to their own. Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.
I think there's a bit difference between having unique and varied specs and having unique and varied roles.

I was Moonkin specced in vanilla with the 31st talent and everything and I was brought to raids to heal and decurse. I never even saw Chromaggus alive because I was so well hidden back there decursing. This may seem like a really funny joke but I actually didn't. Many ferals used their 20% more int talent to good benefit and put on their heal gear for raids back then too.

I am all for hybrid specs and unique specs, but there is some reality that many of the roles are going to be the same regardless, at least in raids. But then, I always felt that the main draw of the hybrids was PvP where you could truly use most of your abilities.

   Selexin
Druid Feral
User avatar
Posts: 49
Likes: 17
Tauren
Hunter
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

teebling wrote:
7 months ago
I am actually starting to hate the word 'min-max'.
Best refer to The Virgin Min-Maxer vs The Chad Immersion, lol.

   teebling Selexin
<The Seven Deadly Sins>
Heartseeker-PvP
Guild Master
Undercity
User avatar
Posts: 120
Likes: 56
Horde
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

As someone who played a lot in classic but focused more on PvP than PvE, I'm excited to try raiding this time, but nervous at the same time. I've never been able to wrap my head all the gear, specs, and numerous tidbits of info every raider seems to have to know/already knows.
I'm going frost mage for farming, is that considered suboptimal for raids?

Ashenvale
User avatar
Posts: 270
Likes: 160
Alliance
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

snickerwicket wrote:
3 months ago
As someone who played a lot in classic but focused more on PvP than PvE, I'm excited to try raiding this time, but nervous at the same time. I've never been able to wrap my head all the gear, specs, and numerous tidbits of info every raider seems to have to know/already knows.
I'm going frost mage for farming, is that considered suboptimal for raids?
Not at all. All the way up to AQ frost is the best. There are certain frost specs considered the best, but I am not certain of what the numbers look like if you don't go all the way matching them. Just a guess and I could be wrong, but I wouldn't think that you'd be too far down the meters if you have a spec that's close and likely your fellow mages want to PvP too if you're on a PvP server.

It is a mystery to me if guilds want everyone to go fire for AQ when Frost is still a perfectly fine DPS spec even if a bit lower at that point.

Undercity
User avatar
Posts: 120
Likes: 56
Horde
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

I know there's tons of BiS guides, but are there any guides for gear to get while working towards the BiS gear? Or do people just usually check out https://classicdb.ch/ or something?

Druid Feral
User avatar
OC Yojamba
Posts: 899
Likes: 712
Tauren
Druid
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

snickerwicket wrote:
3 months ago
I know there's tons of BiS guides, but are there any guides for gear to get while working towards the BiS gear? Or do people just usually check out https://classicdb.ch/ or something?
I think typically while doing dungeons and group quests leading up to chasing your BiS gear you will generally deck yourself out in decent enough gear. I don't think many people release pre-pre-raid BiS. Lvl 50-55 dungeons is where you get the bulk of the gear required to run the level 58-60 dungeons that have the BiS gear.

ImageImage Lvl 45
ImageImage Lvl 35
Undercity
User avatar
Posts: 120
Likes: 56
Horde
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
 •  Unread

that's good to know. Is pvp gear considered decent for any of the early raids?

   Selexin
Similar topics
to 'Don't think the difference between top and bottom classes is that big'
Posts ViewsLast post