I will probably roll Orc shaman, although Troll might be slightly better. Even in top guilds you see non optimal race/class combos because it often has next to no impact. And, to be honest, who hasn't equipped a slightly worse armor piece once just because it looked better ;^)s1atan wrote: ↑4 months agoYes, I definitely believe that everyone should independently decide for what character he wants to play. It's up to everybody how they spend their time.
Also after some consideration I decided to roll Tauren hunter, instead of orc/troll, even when its subpar combo. I just love their lore, appearance, way of life and kodos. :)
Oof, you got me!!
This is why I am going to be in a “hardcore” guild. I would rather spend time farming consumables with my friends than wiping or going slowly in a raid. I really feel that the time gets spent anyway.Wrekk wrote: ↑4 months agoAnother point of view is that if you have limited time, and want to experience as much content as possible, you just want to be relatively effective in what you do. I'd rather prepare for a raid and have an easy time than wiping on an encounter numerous times that would be a cake walk if people would do at least some preparation. A few hours of preparation might save you many hours of wiping and drama.
Technically, marathons are a form of race. I know you meant sprint lol
My actual 2 cents on the topic: Anyone who did a steady amount of time vanilla doing PvP can tell you that a good player (someone who plays their class well) will overcome stereotypes and thrash folks who thought otherwise. People will see this firsthand this summer. Pick what you feel you want to play, immerse yourself in the class, and you will see that regardless of certain imbalances a good player of his/her class will beat an average player of a "superior" class.
Something that occurred to me today:
The difference between top and bottom classes/spec combos gets really big when one of you can get invited to raids and given the gear you need and one of you can't.
While 100g a week can solve the spec problem, being given gear for your "offspec" takes time and can be quite a long wait.
For instance, what if your guild gives big 2H weap prio to warriors and you realize too late that they'd rather give the newb that showed up last month the epic that just dropped instead of you who has been diligently healing for the last two or three months? Be very certain you know what your guild's policies are.
You might think DKP can solve this, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms with some classes lacking point competition and them hoarding excess points.
@Oderlods in response to the OP I really think that a lot of people are going to get caught off guard pvp wise due to making assumptions about ‘strong’ and ‘weak’ classes.
There are so many underrated specs and builds that people who are ‘well informed’ will miss. There is a rift in top top PvE performance but this isn’t as amplified in PvP IMO.
Stormx’s enhance shammy for example...
What I always tell people is that leveling takes a long time. And if you're picking something that you want to own at 60 with but you're going to hate leveling with to the point that you might not even finish the push to 60, just play something else.
Ultimately, the best choice you can make for class in vanilla is to pick something you can actually level and not get tired of.
(Disclaimer: I'm super anti-people telling others how to play the game and mapping out every inch of the game, but here's my opinion on what was discussed earlier)
I'll disagree, though, in that the gap between the optimal specs and those that are not so optimal is negligible. While I think some people overexxagerate the shortcomings of balance druid, for example, that gap is pretty big and you also have to bear in mind not only the spec themselves but the gear available.
Prot paladins is arguably the worst spec in the game, but it's made worse by having zero gear for it. There's a blue set of scholomance gear that is plate and gives both defense and mana per 5, but it's still quite bad. Prot warriors outstrip the ability of bear druids not because bear druids are super bad, necessarily, but that there's a mountain of gear for prot warriors and the entire list of bear druid best in slot for the entirety of the game comes from raids that are BWL or lower. Their BiS weapon is a level 43 staff. Same with a cat druid. A rogue certainly starts off stronger than a cat druid, but then there's an absurd amount of rogue gear and a cat druid doesn't have that same luxury.
Toshiok - Troll Mage, Kil'Jaeden US retail Dimaga - Human Warlock Lightbringer US retail, guild: Animus Invictus
Agreed. While I do thoroughly enjoy grinding out my pre-red BiS gear in vanilla, I think that is a testament to me thoroughly enjoying completing lists! I think enjoyed earning my tank gear pre-raid than I did while raiding, lol.
I agree for class, but people who insist on certain specs need to realize they're less efficient at their best than others and won't always get picked up as quickly. A guild that can clear all content is not the best guild on the server, so you have to anticipate that if you really want to meme spec. To be at the level where it really matters means playing a lot every day, so the people who are picking for spreadsheet dps will burn out. Every class is good and needed, you WILL get a raid spot if you try. Just do yourself a favor and going into classic identify with your class and not a subclass if you want to get as far as possible as fast as possible with your guild.
I agree with you. My post was directed more towards the people that want to get back to WoW and play casually/semi-hardcory. I think choosing the spec/class that you like is more important than anything, since if you don't you're always gonna have that thought in the back of your head of playing your fav class. Obviously for people who are gonna be pretty hardcore players they should do whatever they feel like and choose accordingly to their expectations.Soulovum wrote: ↑4 months agoI agree for class, but people who insist on certain specs need to realize they're less efficient at their best than others and won't always get picked up as quickly. A guild that can clear all content is not the best guild on the server, so you have to anticipate that if you really want to meme spec. To be at the level where it really matters means playing a lot every day, so the people who are picking for spreadsheet dps will burn out. Every class is good and needed, you WILL get a raid spot if you try. Just do yourself a favor and going into classic identify with your class and not a subclass if you want to get as far as possible as fast as possible with your guild.
For example, my friend who has never played WoW (except for trying out retail) wants to start playing Classic, he watches a few videos and tells me "man I wanna play a pala or a druid but they say they're pretty shit". And that's an absolute lie, I've seen all kind of specs work in PvP and even in PvE you can make them work. You may not get to the #1 guild of your server, but if that's never your objective, why should it matter?
Knights of Cydonia
@Nymis, thank you for providing some much needed context with your wall of text, it is very much appreciated.
I would still like to challenge you on a couple of things:
1. You made a point that playing [off-meta / meme / niche / under-performing] specs in a raid group with 39 other people is selfish.
I would make a point that a selfish decision can only be made if I have extensive knowledge about my choices. New players asking on these forums whether they can play a class/spec xyz are the least likely to make a selfish choice. If we - as knowledgeable players - don't discourage them, they will make a choice of pure preference. Boy, wouldn't I sell parts of my soul to be able to do that again.
If a new player makes their class choice and attempts to raid at some point, they will figure shit out themselves anyway :)
My appeal is this:
Please don't discourage new players by telling them they are making selfish decisions when all they have as proof of their selfishness is your word.
2. I'd like to address the entire "chapter" you wrote on: Authority, Relationship among members of the raid group & "lowering the bar".
Disclaimer, this is heavily opinionated and has no real value to the OP.
Essentially you are saying: as someone who plays an off-meta build in a raid, when shit hits the fan you will automatically be the scapegoat and if the raid leader doesn't bench you, he will become the scapegoat instead. Since you brought this up in the authority part, I will address it how I would as a person of authority in that raid: scapegoating is a bigger reason to bench players than an off-meta build or a gameplay mistake could ever be. It is an undesirable behavioral trait in a community & one that I personally would not only bench but probably remove people from my roster for.
The same goes for the second part, wherein you state that when issues arise players are likely to feel resentment towards other players in their group unless they are uniform & comparable (same spec, same rules, same mindset). Man, this is atrocious. No organization anywhere ever should be run this way. This kind of autocratic discouragement doesn't belong anywhere in a gaming community. I apologize for my strong tone in this, but I feel strongly about it.
Lastly, lowering the bar. Deciding to let a player prove his worth with an alternative spec - i feel - is not equal to allowing slack in my raid. In my experience players that run with alternative builds try much harder and are often the more consistent and better players. If they are new to what they are trying, they deserve the help of their community and the chance to improve whenever possible (raids on farm etc, alt raids, etc).
That being said, on the other hand, of course there are always technicalities and progress to consider. A good raid leader and an educated member of a community will always put the collective success of the group first. So if having too many off-meta specs in the raid might jeopardize their goals, they will find ways to compromise.
Also, I don't want to be misunderstood. There will be cases where things just wont work out. And here comes the point where I think we come full circle and you and I have the same opinion: A player who insists on playing a build that is still ineffective even when optimized as well as geared and played correctly, is a parasite. This line however, I find very hard to draw.
The message I want to get across is this:
It doesn't matter what environment you play in, if you accept a player into your community, they are part of your community. In a community, you don't demand uniformity & you don't throw blame around. You work together constructively and find ways to achieve success together.
In the case of Classic World of WarCraft the unique circumstance is that some of us already know how we can achieve success. Let's not be so narrow minded as to presume the best way is the only way.
Yes, my friend, this is the way.
The value that @Nymis has provided to this thread can not be understated. We are the guys who have been waiting for this project... We are the guys that are excited to relive vanilla. We are the most accepting and understanding bunch of people you will interact with during your time in Classic. We accept and embrace EVERY aspect of this game. If you are facing resistance here for your spec choice, understand that the resistance you will face in Classic will likely be FAR greater when interacting with the average user.
Boss doesn't get downed? Damage meters get posted. Guild trims the fat. It might not be right, but this is the way things will go for the majority of players. We are lucky because encounters have a TON of lenience in Classic, but most guilds will still reach their breakpoint and begin to wipe and when they do, they will rely on the easiest metric they have to judge performance at a glance, the meters. Ultimately you will need to decide what the right path is for yourself and seek to find people with a similar mindset, but this is a community driven game and you will constantly be interacting with others both inside your guild and outside of it. Most of the pushback you will face while playing these meme specs simply wont be worth it for the average user. The difference between the top spec and the bottom spec in most cases, is receiving a group invite or a guild invite. In most cases, for better or worse, you wont even be given the chance to prove yourself.
edit: I also think that the information people get on meme's can be a bit skewed because they are receiving a VERY min/maxed version of the class played by a very competent and informed individual. These guides and examples are outliers. For an accurate interpretation of your performance, look at a larger sample size. Go to legacy players and look at actual parses at each of the breakpoints. Ask yourself if these classes are being accepted in progression guilds, and if so, how they are performing on a larger scale? After looking at these parses you will begin to see the difference between the top tier specs and the bottom tier specs. Though I will say there is A LOT more wiggle room when it comes to PvP. Unfortunately for most, gearing exclusively in PvP is unrealistic due to the time investment, and even if you CAN get to rank 14, you will likely STILL need to do some PvE content to fully gear, especially for memes who often struggle with itemization on their PvP sets which are typically useless or designed specifically for one of their specs while disregarding the others.
I think this is a really good point. It will be up to the person playing the off-spec to understand that there are people who will be okay with a sub-optimal build and other people who will not. No one is telling them that they cannot raid as a balance druid or enhancement shaman, or whatever other build someone might want to play. There just needs to be the understanding that, yes, there will be cases where a guild will tell you "no you cannot raid with us" because you choose to spec a certain way.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑4 weeks agoUltimately you will need to decide what the right path is for yourself and seek to find people with a similar mindset, but this is a community driven game and you will constantly be interacting with others both inside your guild and outside of it. Most of the pushback you will face while playing these meme specs simply wont be worth it for the average user.
There will still be plenty of other guilds that will welcome those specs with open arms, it just might be a little more difficult to find them. So, to the second sentence quoted, I think you're right in saying that each person will have to decide whether that extra difficulty is worth it. If you're willing to put in the effort, you will eventually find those like minded people.
The vast majority of gameplay, which means leveling, questing, battlegrounds, dungeons, world pvp, and more, everything is viable, including even stuff that is viewed as completely worthless, such a oomkin, which is incredibly deadly and versatile.
The only time any of this matters is raids, which is an important part of the game for gear, but overall not a big time spender. This is because raids are based upon only a few things, which harms specialized classes, because they cannot perform these roles to a level of a pure class, and their other situational abilities don’t matter.
There two situations here while raiding. Either you’re with a bunch of other people running suboptimal builds, in which case it doesn’t matter, or you get with people that want to knock out raids, and consequently don’t spend much time in your “raiding offspec.”
Neither of these are much concern, particularly since this is a 15 year old game. It’s completely possible to clear every raid running a majority of suboptimal classes, it’s just harder. But everyone should have far more knowledge now than they did in the past, either through playing similars games, or playing vanilla.
Your words make sence, and i agree with you, the only problem here is that you do not consider a long term experience. I've leveled 5 or 6 retries in TBC and on a long term playing one of those you will feel these complaints in your address. This complaints at least one on a day will poke you, thats the bad side of it, i'm just tired to explain for every hardcore min max dummy that i can stil be helpful in my own may, the one my character was designed to, but nah im too tired of it.Oderlods wrote: ↑4 months agoSo, having lurked the ClassicWow subreddit for a lot of time and watching a lot of videos and stuff about classic, you come to think that Ret Paladins and Druids are almost worthless classes. Me myself thought the same way and didn't even consider playing those two.
Some days ago tho, I decided to join RetroWow to test which class I liked better and what would I main (it's hunter!) and I ended up discovering that nor ret pallys or druids are useless. Sure, they may be a bit worse, especially retris but it's not like they are npcs. After getting my ass destroyed by a few retri and boomies I can say that atleast in PvP, I don't feel like there's a class that is above all or that there are classes that are completely useless, as those posts and videos make out to be.
My only conclusion to get out of this is to just main whatever the fuck you want and don't give a shit about what the videos say.
There's nothing wrong about not knowing something / anything about the game just as there's nothing wrong with not knowing much about your first job for instance - even with or without a prior college education for instance, 99/100 times you'll know just about nothing about your first job.Rinkusan wrote: ↑4 weeks agoI would make a point that a selfish decision can only be made if I have extensive knowledge about my choices. New players asking on these forums whether they can play a class/spec xyz are the least likely to make a selfish choice. If we - as knowledgeable players - don't discourage them, they will make a choice of pure preference. Boy, wouldn't I sell parts of my soul to be able to do that again.
The problem is when you're confronted with advice on how to do better and you refuse to take it. Ignorance really is a choice in this time and age, I might've understood reasons for it 15 years ago but I think the problem of "new players just don't have time/ability to learn that fast" is bollocks.
It's genuinely just one rotation, a list of items and a talent build. If you can copy and paste that from whatever document your raid lead/class lead/internet gives you then you can basically stop using the "new player" as an excuse afterwards.
Scapegoating happens naturally and is a logical step in any failure. Something went wrong, objectives were not accomplished, ergo who or what is to blame. There is nothing inherently wrong in this mindset and there is no possible way you can stop people from thinking that.
What you can do is leave non-factual speculation out of their minds and provide a reasonable, truthful answer in perhaps the best and non-offensive way possible. Because if you don't, then people will start making up their own scenarios as to why things went wrong and the fault is almost never pointed in their own direction.
What you see as "autocratic discouragement" is merely fairness applied against the whims and wishes of the very few who would seek to "cheat" this system of thought by getting a disproportionate reward over their effort involved.
I personally don't think this hippie "let everyone play anything wherever and see how far we get" mindset doesn't belong in the gaming community, I just think it's stupid and ineffective. On one hand you're catering towards the casuals and on the other you're hurting people who would love to be part of your guild but leave because they feel they're putting in more work than others but are being held at the same standards as them. Having a balanced set of standards to cater towards the more casual and the more hardcore alike is the best way to manage players/communities in general. Most of the drama in the guilds / loot council usually happens as a result of this disproportionate assessment of people's effort. Now of course, as with any system, it's impossible to please everyone - but giving up on the idea and saying "fuck it, let tanks pay the high repair bills and consumables but they still roll against melee DPS" for instance isn't being nice, it just means being stupid.
Yeah but this isn't "World of Tryingcraft", at the end of the day it's a game of numbers in a community of people.
You don't down bosses because people "tried" harder - that's incidental, and anyone who's played a Frost Mage can tell you it doesn't take a lot of trying to down bosses, it's the numbers that get bosses killed. It's also a community of people - people will get angry, upset, blame themselves or others when things go wrong, this can't be stopped or culled but it can be managed.
For that reason, it is best that you - as a community manager/raid leader whatever - direct those emotions towards objective, quantifiable things.
It's wrong to say "you're not trying enough" because you can't possible know or measure how much a person is trying. It is proper to say "we need better numbers from you" because that can be improved with in-game items, better rotations, consumables and so forth. It's wrong to say "you're a fucking retard, how can you tank like that" because his tanking ability is not a measure of intelligence, but it's proper to say "you need to turn the tank around and just stand in one place because his tail does bad numbers to our good numbers and we won't get those health numbers down fast enough". It makes it way less personal, gives an objective matter we can work on and so forth.
So in the context of effort/ off-meta specs it's the same thing.
First, it's a game of numbers and we need to make sure your numbers are the good kind of numbers we can use so we don't feel like we're carrying you or you don't feel cheated on when we prefer to give loot to people who can do more numbers than you. Second, it's a community of people and they need to understand why your numbers are good numbers even if they don't show up on the meters, or why you're entitled to that piece of loot because of some numbers that others might not know about.