killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Good luck , I doubt Rogues have "Holy" in their "Talent" tree! Just like Paladins have "Protection" .

It doesn't matter how terrible of an idea it is and how awfully slow and inefficient it is, it works! Therefore its viable. Whats that you say? It will slow the group down like prot paladin tanking? Who cares it makes me feel special! Whats that you say, I need to be too geared or too high for the content to make it work? Still viable! Whats that, I will need the group to cater to my needs to ensure they kite mobs properly to avoid damage so my bandages dont get interrupted similar to how prot pallys have no taunt and will need the group to be hyper aware of the pallies needs? Who cares Im special!!! Whats that you say, my spec is almost entirely based on consumables (bandages) exactly like prot paladin tanking? Still viable!!!

As ridiculous as rogue healing with bandages is... You can begin to see the similarities. Though, it is viable... So who am I to judge?

@killerduki, a lot of forum members and pserver/classic players are not going to come around to accept "meme specs". I think the sooner you can accept that and move on, the easier things will be. There are plenty of players on the forum who are willing to talk about hybrid specs etc. in detail and in a positive manner. @Caperfin is always up for a chat, and if your thread gets derailed and dissolves into a pointless argument, then you can try PM'ing him to keep the discussion positive/constructive.

Unfortunately some of the negativity/resistance you will receive on the forums is a mirror of what you have probably witnessed on Pservers and will likely witness on Classic. It is a shame, but it has become a reality. It seems like you have a lot of knowledge and ability with Prot Paladin, and I think you will likely find a great guild and community to flourish in that position like you did on pservers.

I'm a feral druid, they are in less of a predicament than Prot paly, but there is definitely some level of discrimination for playing part of the game others won't bother/consider trying.

Selexin wrote: ↑

5 years ago

killerduki, a lot of forum members and pserver/classic players are not going to come around to accept "meme specs". I think the sooner you can accept that and move on, the easier things will be. There are plenty of players on the forum who are willing to talk about hybrid specs etc. in detail and in a positive manner. Caperfin is always up for a chat, and if your thread gets derailed and dissolves into a pointless argument, then you can try PM'ing him to keep the discussion positive/constructive.

Unfortunately some of the negativity/resistance you will receive on the forums is a mirror of what you have probably witnessed on Pservers and will likely witness on Classic. It is a shame, but it has become a reality. It seems like you have a lot of knowledge and ability with Prot Paladin, and I think you will likely find a great guild and community to flourish in that position like you did on pservers.

I'm a feral druid, they are in less of a predicament than Prot paly, but there is definitely some level of discrimination for playing part of the game others won't bother/consider trying.

killerduki, a lot of forum members and pserver/classic players are not going to come around to accept "meme specs". I think the sooner you can accept that and move on, the easier things will be.

I know that mentality stigma and from where it came, it came from Pservers like Feenix back in 2013 where everything was Junk Bugged and Joke Scripted , because of that stuffs , Hybrids got Title "Meme Specs" , "Junk Specs" , "Not Viable Specs" , "Not Optimal Specs" and so on.

All the stuffs never existed or was extremely rare back in 2005/2006 , but it developed for first time in 2013 at Private Servers scene like Feenix, which got expanded in Nostalrius (who was again full with bugs and wrong scripts) which spread this Virus even more thanks to wrong scripts and bugs, later ended up like "being normal" in today's mentality and brainwashing ways.

There are plenty of players on the forum who are willing to talk about hybrid specs etc. in detail and in a positive manner. Caperfin is always up for a chat, and if your thread gets derailed and dissolves into a pointless argument, then you can try PM'ing him to keep the discussion positive/constructive.

That's the biggest problem for Protection Paladins , anytime they try to expand stuffs in constructive and positive manner , to teach people who want to enjoy playing it and learning it , we always end up being derailed with some 10 yrs kids and Trolls , what's most important is that , none of them have a fucking clue how stuffs work , but they are here to shit on your post.

Unfortunately some of the negativity/resistance you will receive on the forums is a mirror of what you have probably witnessed on Pservers and will likely witness on Classic. It is a shame, but it has become a reality.

That's the real problem what usually kills Classic , not because of "prot paladins" , but because of the "Hardcore monolithic Mentality from today Kids" .

It seems like you have a lot of knowledge and ability with Prot Paladin, and I think you will likely find a great guild and community to flourish in that position like you did on pservers.

I am going to run my own Guild , that how i did on these Pservers and how i am going to do it again, at least that's easy for me as skilled 14 years WoW player (Raid Leader,GM,Class Leader) and 14 years skilled Protection Paladin.

I'm a feral druid, they are in less of a predicament than Prot paly, but there is definitely some level of discrimination for playing part of the game others won't bother/consider trying.

Agree.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I am going to run my own Guild , that how i did on these Pservers and how i am going to do it again, at least that's easy for me as skilled 14 years WoW player (Raid Leader,GM,Class Leader) and 14 years skilled Protection Paladin.

Please post unedited versions of your raids on your first few nights of progression! This would be like the disaster artist movie meets vanilla WoW raiding! I can just see it now. All jokes aside, this could draw a MASSIVE following! I would watch and subscribe. The irony of a prot pally tank trying to reprimand his poor performing members and to get them to perform better. It would be the ultimate version of raid satire.

In essence, having a few of these meme specs around can always add some flavor, but where do you draw the line? Look at it this way... It takes a certain amount of throughput to down content. If your guild goes FULL min/max tryhard mode, you will defeat the boss. If your guild goes FULL meme with shaman tanks and prot pallies and boomkins, you will fail. There is a certain amount of memery that any guild can support, but that memery has a limit. Vanilla raids have a TON of lenience, which is why there is some wiggle room for these awful specs, but at what point do you put limits on your own guild? Surely you wont let everyone play whatever they want? And if you do, and then hit a wall where you fail to progress due to your poor throughput, whats next? Do you consider your numbers and make changes (towards min/maxing) to help down the content, wouldnt that be hypocritical?

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

blah232
Published on May 3, 2006

Protection Paladin Main Tanking Onyxia , you can see the Video (His Spells and Abilites was from PRE 1.9 Patch).

That mean Pre 1.9 Patch = Hardmode Onyxia , NO AQ.

It's a meme video for Grievous, duki :) There are no DPS on that fight.

Selexin wrote: ↑

5 years ago

a lot of forum members and pserver/classic players are not going to come around to accept "meme specs".

Healer Rogue is a meme spec. Protection Paladin is not a meme spec. I hope you understand the difference

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

It will slow the group down like prot paladin tanking?

Paladin tanking doesn't slow groups down.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Whats that you say, I need to be too geared or too high for the content to make it work? Still viable!

A prot Paladin doesn't need to be "too geared" to make it work.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

..similar to how prot pallys have no taunt and will need the group to be hyper aware of the pallies needs?

Protadin doesn't need the group to be hyper-aware of not having a taunt.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Whats that you say, my spec is almost entirely based on consumables (bandages) exactly like prot paladin tanking? Still viable!!!

Protadin is NOT based on consumables.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

As ridiculous as rogue healing with bandages is... You can begin to see the similarities. Though, it is viable... So who am I to judge?

There are no similarities. The only similarity was created in YOUR head.

Killerduki is correct in saying that you're throwing statements left and right, but describing only YOUR anecdotal experience or some unconfirmed general consensus as the proof of your statements.

@Stfuppercut Please provide actual evidence and examples for your claims:
- How much faster is a group of the same composition using a Warrior tank compared to using a Paladin tank?
- How much better gear does a Paladin tank require to "make it work" than a Warrior tank?
- What exactly does the group need to be aware of because of having a Paladin tank?
- Which consumables are the neccessity for Paladin tanking?

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Paladin tanking doesn't slow groups down.

It does, because they need to drink. Constantly.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

A prot Paladin doesn't need to be "too geared" to make it work.

They do in comparison to other tanks. They are less efficient.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Protadin doesn't need the group to be hyper-aware of not having a taunt.

They do because taunts are a reactionary ability to allow the tank to re-establish threat. This is important for mobs with threat dumps and on encounters where the tank is temporarily stunned or CC'd and needs to retake threat. You will lose threat. Whether a group member jumps you on threat or an extra pack is pulled, taunt is important. This is a huge issue for prot paladins. Groups make mistakes and taunt allows you to mitigate loss, without it you are depending on others to play without error; this is unrealistic. This isn't there only issue though... They have no ranged ability. Exorcism for demons and undead and then judgement on 10 yards range??? So you depend on your group to setup your line of sight pulls? Handing off a tanking responsibility to others and depending on them to take a portion of your responsibility so that you can be a snowflake? This is the part where you tell me you will use engineering and then I tell you that grenades are consumables... See comment below.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Protadin is NOT based on consumables.

Yes they are. HIGHLY based on consumables in fact. You dont plan on using dark runes or mana pots and youre going to play a prot paladin? No engineering? Any of the other pallies in here want to back this guy up? I have heard some wild things in this thread but nothing quite that wild.

Here is a tankadin guide.
https://www.warcrafttavern.com/guides/t ... w-classic/

First four points on the guide include:
Most people will think you’re completely useless.
Use all consumables that you can.
Soulforge is not good for any spec PVE.
You have to be VERY dedicated to even have a chance at making this work.

Even people who are writing guides in support of this class, disagree with you. You are insane if you think you can play a prot pally without consumes.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Killerduki is correct in saying that you're throwing statements left and right, but describing only YOUR anecdotal experience or some unconfirmed general consensus as the proof of your statements.

Hearing that your spec sucks isnt easy. It wont be easy for prot pallys the entire time they are playing. It wont be easy to know that you are replaceable and that most people will feel uncomfortable investing gear into a suboptimal tank. In a perfect world paladins would be as good as warriors, but they are not. They are viable but they are far from optimal. They wont be worth playing for the majority of users. That being said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and I look forward to tracking Duki's progress as his guild advances through Classic . Additionally, I am okay with being the voice of reason in this thread to protect a would-be prot paladin who doesn't know any better from investing time into a spec that is very bad.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

@Stfuppercut Please provide actual evidence and examples for your claims:
- How much faster is a group of the same composition using a Warrior tank compared to using a Paladin tank?
- How much better gear does a Paladin tank require to "make it work" than a Warrior tank?
- What exactly does the group need to be aware of because of having a Paladin tank?
- Which consumables are the neccessity for Paladin tanking?

Some of this can be found in the guide I linked. I'll be honest, I googled paladin guide and clicked the first link. I'm not going to invest a lot of time into explaining why prot pallies are trash, because they are. I've played with quite a few and none were very good. None are listed very high on parses from private. No serious guilds bring prot paladins. A warrior can pull so long as his healer has mana. A paladin is more concerned with his own mana and will take more time drinking than the healer does, in this way a prot paladin makes the group less efficient. The group needs to be aware of the short comings of a protadin. For example prot pallies generate a TON of their threat by BEING hit, which causes issues when they LOSE threat. They don't have a taunt and due to mana constraints can have issues pulling threat again. When Classic rolls around you boys can tell me how much success you've had. You aren't going to reinvent the wheel... Prot paladins are bad. Can you MAKE them viable? Sure. No one will be begging for prot pallies in their groups or raids though. The best outcome you could have is to create a guild like Duki and surround yourself with enablers who carry you. Without the support of others, this spec falls on its face. My evidence is 15 years of collective community player experience that leads the majority of the community to scoffing at this spec. If you want to play a prot paladin, PLAY IT! Dont try to justify your suboptimal and selfish actions.

@killerduki Did you even watch the Ony video you posted? The paladin did horrible... He used a TON of consumes. He almost died a handful of times and was carried by the healers as a meme! They just spammed him with heals while he slowly auto attacked lol. The video ENDS as Ony goes into air phase? Are you so inexperienced that you dont even know what you are watching? This was not a full encounter... This was not a clean encounter and that was NOT a good representation of a prot pally tanking.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Paladin tanking doesn't slow groups down.

It does, because they need to drink. Constantly.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

A prot Paladin doesn't need to be "too geared" to make it work.

They do in comparison to other tanks. They are less efficient.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Protadin doesn't need the group to be hyper-aware of not having a taunt.

They do because taunts are a reactionary ability to allow the tank to re-establish threat. This is important for mobs with threat dumps and on encounters where the tank is temporarily stunned or CC'd and needs to retake threat. You will lose threat. Whether a group member jumps you on threat or an extra pack is pulled, taunt is important. This is a huge issue for prot paladins. Groups make mistakes and taunt allows you to mitigate loss, without it you are depending on others to play without error; this is unrealistic. This isn't there only issue though... They have no ranged ability. Exorcism for demons and undead and then judgement on 10 yards range??? So you depend on your group to setup your line of sight pulls? Handing off a tanking responsibility to others and depending on them to take a portion of your responsibility so that you can be a snowflake? This is the part where you tell me you will use engineering and then I tell you that grenades are consumables... See comment below.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Protadin is NOT based on consumables.

Yes they are. HIGHLY based on consumables in fact. You dont plan on using dark runes or mana pots and youre going to play a prot paladin? No engineering? Any of the other pallies in here want to back this guy up? I have heard some wild things in this thread but nothing quite that wild.

Here is a tankadin guide.
https://www.warcrafttavern.com/guides/t ... w-classic/

First four points on the guide include:
Most people will think you’re completely useless.
Use all consumables that you can.
Soulforge is not good for any spec PVE.
You have to be VERY dedicated to even have a chance at making this work.

Even people who are writing guides in support of this class, disagree with you. You are insane if you think you can play a prot pally without consumes.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Killerduki is correct in saying that you're throwing statements left and right, but describing only YOUR anecdotal experience or some unconfirmed general consensus as the proof of your statements.

Hearing that your spec sucks isnt easy. It wont be easy for prot pallys the entire time they are playing. It wont be easy to know that you are replaceable and that most people will feel uncomfortable investing gear into a suboptimal tank. In a perfect world paladins would be as good as warriors, but they are not. They are viable but they are far from optimal. They wont be worth playing for the majority of users. That being said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and I look forward to tracking Duki's progress as his guild advances through Classic . Additionally, I am okay with being the voice of reason in this thread to protect a would-be prot paladin who doesn't know any better from investing time into a spec that is very bad.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

@Stfuppercut Please provide actual evidence and examples for your claims:
- How much faster is a group of the same composition using a Warrior tank compared to using a Paladin tank?
- How much better gear does a Paladin tank require to "make it work" than a Warrior tank?
- What exactly does the group need to be aware of because of having a Paladin tank?
- Which consumables are the neccessity for Paladin tanking?

Some of this can be found in the guide I linked. I'll be honest, I googled paladin guide and clicked the first link. I'm not going to invest a lot of time into explaining why prot pallies are trash, because they are. I've played with quite a few and none were very good. None are listed very high on parses from private. No serious guilds bring prot paladins. A warrior can pull so long as his healer has mana. A paladin is more concerned with his own mana and will take more time drinking than the healer does, in this way a prot paladin makes the group less efficient. The group needs to be aware of the short comings of a protadin. For example prot pallies generate a TON of their threat by BEING hit, which causes issues when they LOSE threat. They don't have a taunt and due to mana constraints can have issues pulling threat again. When Classic rolls around you boys can tell me how much success you've had. You aren't going to reinvent the wheel... Prot paladins are bad. Can you MAKE them viable? Sure. No one will be begging for prot pallies in their groups or raids though. The best outcome you could have is to create a guild like Duki and surround yourself with enablers who carry you. Without the support of others, this spec falls on its face. My evidence is 15 years of collective community player experience that leads the majority of the community to scoffing at this spec. If you want to play a prot paladin, PLAY IT! Dont try to justify your suboptimal and selfish actions.

They do in comparison to other tanks. They are less efficient.

And you just have seen an unedited Footage of Protection Paladin Main Tanking using Green Gear and Pre Raid Gear while still doing the job properly and still being efficient in killing the Boss!

It does, because they need to drink. Constantly.

Seal and Judgement of Wisdom with Demonic Runes and Mana Potions as backup tells how you have literally 0 fucking clue about this Game!

Yes they are. HIGHLY based on consumables in fact. You dont plan on using dark runes or mana pots and youre going to play a prot paladin? No engineering? Any of the other pallies in here want to back this guy up? I have heard some wild things in this thread but nothing quite that wild.

Here is a tankadin guide.
https://www.warcrafttavern.com/guides/t ... w-classic/

First four points on the guide include:
Most people will think you’re completely useless.
Use all consumables that you can.
Soulforge is not good for any spec PVE.
You have to be VERY dedicated to even have a chance at making this work.

Even people who are writing guides in support of this class, disagree with you. You are insane if you think you can play a prot pally without consumes.

What is written in the Bottom of the Website :

This guide was originally posted by Cysthen on the WoW One forums and has been preserved here.

This is what i wrote about biggest lies about Protection Paladin , Cystheen and Skarm who preach false info about them , even i wrote that in my previous post about it , but you still came out coming with that conclusion and providing us HIS Website , isn't it an Irony!?

And this is what you completely Ignored in those Posts :

Only because you been watching fucking Noobs , doesn't make your Facts valid, i know there are so much called "Fake News" Protection Paladin Experts like "Skarm" , "Cystheen" etc etc , but keep in mind they are people "WHO HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE HOW PALADIN WORK".

I know that mentality stigma and from where it came, it came from Pservers like Feenix back in 2013 where everything was Junk Bugged and Joke Scripted , because of that stuffs , Hybrids got Title "Meme Specs" , "Junk Specs" , "Not Viable Specs" , "Not Optimal Specs" and so on.

All the stuffs never existed or was extremely rare back in 2005/2006 , but it developed for first time in 2013 at Private Servers scene like Feenix,

And on top of that , you also ignored all my Videos and Screenshots of me Main Tanking Raids and Tanking 5 mans.



Here ^ is education Video for Protection Paladins and for you to learn about it, it's on poor English and bad Quality , but this is how Paladin Protection working instead of how "They Represent" .

Ignorance is Bliss and you are very good on that , i like it , because i can see what your purpose is here, to Troll , to ignore everything that was said to you and to derail this thread!

@killerduki

Sure bud. Because whats more reasonable... Everyone else has no idea how to play this trash spec and you are one of the very few who can make it viable? Or that the spec is just trash... If the first is true, you probably shouldn't be recommending it to other players like OP, especially if they are casual. If the second is true, you're wrong.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

killerduki

Sure bud. Because whats more reasonable... Everyone else has no idea how to play this trash spec and you are one of the very few who can make it viable? Or that the spec is just trash... If the first is true, you probably shouldn't be recommending it to other players like OP, especially if they are casual. If the second is true, you're wrong.

I play Protection Paladin over 14 Years and it is funny how trolls like you coming here and preaching stuffs that i have already experienced long ago , also telling me wrong, when i do those stuffs on daily basis.

Yes i guarantee 90% of Protection Paladins are trash and 100% of the current Streamers and Preachers who Preach about Protection Paladins have no clue how Protection Paladin work , let alone example you threw like Skarm and Cystheen.

But they are "Popular" , so they must be Valid ! :) (Irony).

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I play Protection Paladin over 14 Years and it is funny how trolls like you coming here and preaching stuffs that i have already experienced long ago , also telling me wrong, when i do those stuffs on daily basis.

Yes i guarantee 90% of Protection Paladins are trash and 100% of the current Streamers and Preachers who Preach about Protection Paladins have no clue how Protection Paladin work , let alone example you threw like Skarm and Cystheen.

But they are "Popular" , so they must be Valid ! :) (Irony).

You enjoy prot paladin. Despite prot paladin performing poorly in comparison to other tanks YOU enjoy it. You don't need to justify your choice. You have FUN as a prot paladin! You surround yourself with guild members who likely enjoy playing with you despite the fact that you are a prot pally or perhaps because THEY enjoy playing with a prot paladin. Class choices are subjective. Even though your spec is awful and should not be recommended to a new player, YOU value it, and that is all that matters. Doing something that is sub optimal for 14 years does not make it optimal. Perhaps you have become incredibly adept at playing that sub optimal spec, but if you put the same effort into EITHER of the other two tanks available, you would have a better results. The great news is, you don't have to. You can continue to play that sub optimal spec but screeching that it is optimal, does not make it optimal. I can feel your passion in your posts... You LOVE that spec. Far be it from me to take that from you, I wouldn't dare, nor would I advocate that anyone else should stifle someone so passionate about a single spec.

Given the fact that this spec is SO dominant, I'm sure we will see it used in speed clears and server firsts! (sarcasm). The popularity of a spec is almost always correlated with the specs performance.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I play Protection Paladin over 14 Years and it is funny how trolls like you coming here and preaching stuffs that i have already experienced long ago , also telling me wrong, when i do those stuffs on daily basis.

Yes i guarantee 90% of Protection Paladins are trash and 100% of the current Streamers and Preachers who Preach about Protection Paladins have no clue how Protection Paladin work , let alone example you threw like Skarm and Cystheen.

But they are "Popular" , so they must be Valid ! :) (Irony).

You enjoy prot paladin. Despite prot paladin performing poorly in comparison to other tanks YOU enjoy it. You don't need to justify your choice. You have FUN as a prot paladin! You surround yourself with guild members who likely enjoy playing with you despite the fact that you are a prot pally or perhaps because THEY enjoy playing with a prot paladin. Class choices are subjective. Even though your spec is awful and should not be recommended to a new player, YOU value it, and that is all that matters. Doing something that is sub optimal for 14 years does not make it optimal. Perhaps you have become incredibly adept at playing that sub optimal spec, but if you put the same effort into EITHER of the other two tanks available, you would have a better results. The great news is, you don't have to. You can continue to play that sub optimal spec but screeching that it is optimal, does not make it optimal. I can feel your passion in your posts... You LOVE that spec. Far be it from me to take that from you, I wouldn't dare, nor would I advocate that anyone else should stifle someone so passionate about a single spec.

Given the fact that this spec is SO dominant, I'm sure we will see it used in speed clears and server firsts! (sarcasm). The popularity of a spec is almost always correlated with the specs performance.

You can continue to play that sub optimal spec but screeching that it is optimal, does not make it optimal.

And you NEVER EVER provided a single Evidence about your Claims telling that Paladins not being Optimal, but therefore you screech all the time about it and derailing this very Productive Topic about Protection Paladin.....

"Reality" .

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

And you NEVER EVER provided a single Evidence about your Claims telling that Paladins not being Optimal, but therefore you screech all the time about it and derailing this very Productive Topic about Protection Paladin.....

"Reality" .

My evidence is Cystheen and Skarm but you say that doesn't count. While you demand evidence, and there is a WIDE body of evidence to indicate that prot pallys are awful (namely that no one plays them or brings them to raids) you also dismiss those who disagree with you. You call them noobs... Yet you yourself play a sub optimal spec, so your judgement is questionable at best.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Paladin tanking doesn't slow groups down.

It does, because they need to drink. Constantly.

All mana classes need to drink. Constantly. I'm pretty sure you already know that, but somehow nobody's bitching at drinking unless you're a pally tank. Why? Did you never have to wait for the healer to get his mana back? Or are you perhaps basing this claim on watching Skarm's video that you linked on page 1?

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

A prot Paladin doesn't need to be "too geared" to make it work.

They do in comparison to other tanks. They are less efficient.

Please provide me an example. In which statistic is the Palatank less efficient? And which pieces of gear make up for this assumed lack of efficiency?

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Protadin doesn't need the group to be hyper-aware of not having a taunt.

They do because taunts are a reactionary ability to allow the tank to re-establish threat. This is important for mobs with threat dumps and on encounters where the tank is temporarily stunned or CC'd and needs to retake threat. You will lose threat.

You don't need a taunt, if you don't lose threat.

So, in raids, the usual thing is to A) have everyone know the boss tactics BEFORE the raid even begins, or B) tell the tactics just before you engage the fight. Therefore, the raid group is already aware if the boss has a mechanic for reducing/dropping threat, and should be acting according to it. There is no extra awareness involved just because the tank is a Paladin. Several bosses are also immune to taunt completely.

For cases of NOT preparing prior, for example Doctor Theolen Krastinov in Scholomance is known for using a knockdown stun which reduces threat. I have succesfully tanked the Doctor, without losing aggro, as a Retribution spec in pre-raid gear. No improved RF, no Blessing of Sanctuary and no Holy Shield. Killerduki has a video of him, where he tells the group to go MAX DPS on said boss, but the group is paranoid so they wait with damage. And the reason for that is bad tanks and posts like yours.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Whether a group member jumps you on threat or an extra pack is pulled, taunt is important. This is a huge issue for prot paladins. Groups make mistakes and taunt allows you to mitigate loss, without it you are depending on others to play without error; this is unrealistic.

If an extra pack is pulled, you simply position yourself properly and pop Consecration. You will take aggro automatically. Judge Righteousness if it was an actual misfire. But if you're thinking, for example, that a Mage casts Flamestrike into an unaggroed mobpack while you're fighting another mobpack, then the Mage is an idiot and should be warned/kicked out of the dungeon group. If someone does such a thing in a Raid, then it's even worse.
If an accidental pull happens in a Raid, the response is the same - position yourself between the mob and the raid and you take aggro easily. Moreover, raid group always has multiple tanks, even plate wearers, that can also deal with the extra pulls until a tank takes them.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

This isn't there only issue though... They have no ranged ability. Exorcism for demons and undead and then judgement on 10 yards range??? So you depend on your group to setup your line of sight pulls? Handing off a tanking responsibility to others and depending on them to take a portion of your responsibility so that you can be a snowflake? This is the part where you tell me you will use engineering and then I tell you that grenades are consumables... See comment below.

Please provide an example, where the Protection Paladin cannot setup a line of sight pull and NEEDS someone from the party to do it for him.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Protadin is NOT based on consumables.

Yes they are. HIGHLY based on consumables in fact. You dont plan on using dark runes or mana pots and youre going to play a prot paladin? No engineering? Any of the other pallies in here want to back this guy up? I have heard some wild things in this thread but nothing quite that wild.

Here is a tankadin guide.
https://www.warcrafttavern.com/guides/t ... w-classic/

First four points on the guide include:
Most people will think you’re completely useless.
Use all consumables that you can.
Soulforge is not good for any spec PVE.
You have to be VERY dedicated to even have a chance at making this work.

Even people who are writing guides in support of this class, disagree with you. You are insane if you think you can play a prot pally without consumes.

Oh I see. Some idiot wrote bullshit in his guide, and you took his statement as a fact. LOL Good job. Nope, that's not how it works

Consumables
Also I am going to put a list of consumables you NEED to use to even be good raiding. If you raid without these you will be bad. I am warning you.

The EXTREME MINIMUM amount you will need.

So, the "extreme minimum" to tank raid bosses is apparently a Flask, four Elixir-type consumables, 16 stamina food, full stack of Runes and Major mana potions. Care to explain @Stfuppercut how was killerduki able to tank raid bosses in his videos NOT using all these listed consumables? For example his Magmadar video, where he's using a single elixir from the list, no flask, no other consumables, no potion, no dark rune.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Killerduki is correct in saying that you're throwing statements left and right, but describing only YOUR anecdotal experience or some unconfirmed general consensus as the proof of your statements.

Hearing that your spec sucks isnt easy. It wont be easy for prot pallys the entire time they are playing. It wont be easy to know that you are replaceable and that most people will feel uncomfortable investing gear into a suboptimal tank. In a perfect world paladins would be as good as warriors, but they are not. They are viable but they are far from optimal. They wont be worth playing for the majority of users. That being said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and I look forward to tracking Duki's progress as his guild advances through Classic . Additionally, I am okay with being the voice of reason in this thread to protect a would-be prot paladin who doesn't know any better from investing time into a spec that is very bad.

It's not my spec. I won't even be playing a Paladin The next part of your paragraph is just restating your misconceptions without providing proof, so I'll ignore it.
For the final sentence about being the "voice of reason". I believe that a voice of reason should be asking important questions regarding the topic, and guiding the discussion in search of the truth. So far, you haven't been doing that. You've been writing statements without personal experience on the matter and without supporting your statements with facts and examples.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

@Stfuppercut Please provide actual evidence and examples for your claims:
- How much faster is a group of the same composition using a Warrior tank compared to using a Paladin tank?
- How much better gear does a Paladin tank require to "make it work" than a Warrior tank?
- What exactly does the group need to be aware of because of having a Paladin tank?
- Which consumables are the neccessity for Paladin tanking?

Some of this can be found in the guide I linked. I'll be honest, I googled paladin guide and clicked the first link. I'm not going to invest a lot of time into explaining why prot pallies are trash, because they are.

If you don't want to invest time into learning about Protection Paladins tanking, then why are you in this topic? We didn't exactly ask for your presence, or to be a "voice of reason" either. You took the role of your own volition, so you should be prepared to spend time performing in the role you choose.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I've played with quite a few and none were very good. None are listed very high on parses from private. No serious guilds bring prot paladins.

Sorry, but personal experience from having one in a party doesn't really reflect what a class spec can do.
I don't know where exactly should a Protection Paladin be listed "very high", as the only first place he wants to be in is the threat meter.
Each guild has the right to choose their setup. Add the fact that there is usually enough Prot warriors even if just a side-spec for a DPS player, that there's considerably less Tankadins in all of the pallies, that there's these bullshit guides like the one you posted, and finally add the stigma of having a non-healer Paladin because of some unfounded general consensus. Yeah, it seems pretty normal that you won't find many guilds with prot paladins.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

A warrior can pull so long as his healer has mana. A paladin is more concerned with his own mana and will take more time drinking than the healer does, in this way a prot paladin makes the group less efficient.

A paladin healer is also concerned more with his own mana, than for example with the DPS's mana. How does that make a prot paladin less efficient? Please explain, because that really doesn't make any sense. About "taking more time drinking", Tankadin has much smaller mana pool, so if anything, he will take LESS time drinking than a healer or a DPS when the party is drinking.
Again, if you're basing this on Skarm's video, well, it depends on the Paladin. There are smart paladins who will try to use their resources in a smart way. And then there's Skarm, who uses Holy Shield on Baroness Anastari, a miniboss that keeps casting spells almost permanently. If you waste your mana, you will need to drink, but that's true for any mana class, not just for Tankadins.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The group needs to be aware of the short comings of a protadin. For example prot pallies generate a TON of their threat by BEING hit, which causes issues when they LOSE threat. They don't have a taunt and due to mana constraints can have issues pulling threat again.

Oh? Have you perhaps done the math on that?
I didn't. But last time I checked, the only threat you generate by being hit is Holy Shield and Blessing of Sanctuary threat. You get that ONLY when you block, which is a kinda low chance, so that's a pretty unreliable source of threat. And also much lower compared to Consecration or Judgement.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

When Classic rolls around you boys can tell me how much success you've had. You aren't going to reinvent the wheel... Prot paladins are bad. Can you MAKE them viable? Sure. No one will be begging for prot pallies in their groups or raids though. The best outcome you could have is to create a guild like Duki and surround yourself with enablers who carry you. Without the support of others, this spec falls on its face. My evidence is 15 years of collective community player experience that leads the majority of the community to scoffing at this spec. If you want to play a prot paladin, PLAY IT! Dont try to justify your suboptimal and selfish actions.

Prot paladins are NOT bad.
If all you've ever met was a random Palatank once in a blue moon, and the person was a Skarm-like tankadin, then your "15 years of collective community player experience" amounts to almost NO experience at all. It's very visible on the blizzard forums, where the "Spelladin" spec appeared, here in 2019, and was also met with the same trash talk and disbelief from people who probably never even had the chance to see that spec in action. But they still said it's bad, when it isn't. It's the stigma of the community, not really the issue of the spec.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

@killerduki Did you even watch the Ony video you posted? The paladin did horrible... He used a TON of consumes. He almost died a handful of times and was carried by the healers as a meme! They just spammed him with heals while he slowly auto attacked lol. The video ENDS as Ony goes into air phase? Are you so inexperienced that you dont even know what you are watching? This was not a full encounter... This was not a clean encounter and that was NOT a good representation of a prot pally tanking.

You would know that Grievous was a well-known fella on his server. I believe they called him "Grievous Christ" because of how he was famous. The onyxia video is one of his stunts. As I stated in my earlier response, there are NO DPS players on that raid, only healers and a Tankadin, and the goal is not to defeat Onyxia, but to create a meme of Grievous fighting a raidboss.

Man this was a freakin long write.
edit: fixed final three quotations

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

And you NEVER EVER provided a single Evidence about your Claims telling that Paladins not being Optimal, but therefore you screech all the time about it and derailing this very Productive Topic about Protection Paladin.....

"Reality" .

My evidence is Cystheen and Skarm but you say that doesn't count. While you demand evidence, and there is a WIDE body of evidence to indicate that prot pallys are awful (namely that no one plays them or brings them to raids) you also dismiss those who disagree with you. You call them noobs... Yet you yourself play a sub optimal spec, so your judgement is questionable at best.

"Doesn't count" or "Being Noob At something" are 2 different things.

Those 2 Preachers are Noobs , but they are Popular , so "They must be Valid" . ..



Skarm Words about "OOM"

"You can't hit maximum Consecration each 8 seconds" .

Now here is Video Evidence of me which proves him wrong and noob :



Spamming Max Rank Consecration and being far from OOM.

As for Cystheen "Site" who base all his facts from "Feenix" Private Servers with all the broken Abilities,Wrong Scripts ,Bugs (Consumes list) .



Disapproving Cystheen with educational explanation why !

@Psojed you weren't even aware that prot pallies were consume heavy. You have some guides to read before we can continue this conversation. Your exact quote was that "Protadin is NOT based on consumables." Get outta here.

Because they aren't, silly
I gave you an example, killerduki tanking Magmadar, using no consumables during the fight.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

blah232
Published on May 3, 2006

Protection Paladin Main Tanking Onyxia , you can see the Video (His Spells and Abilites was from PRE 1.9 Patch).

That mean Pre 1.9 Patch = Hardmode Onyxia , NO AQ.

It's a meme video for Grievous, duki :) There are no DPS on that fight.

Selexin wrote: ↑

5 years ago

a lot of forum members and pserver/classic players are not going to come around to accept "meme specs".

Healer Rogue is a meme spec. Protection Paladin is not a meme spec. I hope you understand the difference

You'll notice the quotation marks around "meme spec" as I quote others in the thread and forums.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Because they aren't, silly
I gave you an example, killerduki tanking Magmadar, using no consumables during the fight.

Ugggghhh... Your brain is SOOOO dumb. I clicked the video reluctantly, looked at the top right of the screen. Consumables. Clearly has a Greater Arcane Elixir up. "No consumables"? Why are you even arguing anymore. At least make a compelling argument... Example of a compelling argument: "He didn't have to use a mana pot during his Magmadar encounter etc etc etc". This would be weak, because Mag is a super easy fight, but at least it would be a talking point. Instead, you just boldly state that there are NO CONSUMABLES being used. Within 2 seconds of looking at the video, you're wrong. Do you even understand what a consumable is? Stop trying to pipe up and jump to Duki's aid, you're actually making him look bad. Stop... Take a breather. Think about what you want to say and then contribute to the conversation in a meaningful way. You're both so emotional that you aren't looking at this objectively. Prot paladins are suboptimal. No one here is advocating that you cant tank as a prot paladin. I am saying that it is not worth it. If you disagree and think that it IS worth it, you should play one.



Look at the top right of the screen. Thats where your buffs are listed.

Greater Arcane Elixir is a consumable.
https://classicdb.ch/?item=13454

2 seconds into the video I stopped watching. Thats how long it took me to derail your point. For all I know more consumes were used, but thats about as much effort as I am willing to put in to pat you on the head and settle you down.

Oh, but I did indeed notice the Greater Arcane Elixir. I mentioned it in the longpost. And I did indeed make a compelling argument.

I used this video as an example to debunk YOUR claim that Tankadin is consume-heavy. The video clearly proves that you don't need to consume ANYTHING during a raid boss fight.

In my longpost, I used the video to debunk the claim from the Tankadin guide you linked, which states that using a flask, four elixirs, food and both runes and major mana potions is the "EXTREME MINIMUM" to be able to tank in a raid. Again, the video clearly shows that you can tank just fine, even while using only one elixir from the list of "extreme minimum" of consumables.

Please kindly read my posts before you try to reply to them.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Because they aren't, silly
I gave you an example, killerduki tanking Magmadar, using no consumables during the fight.

Ugggghhh... Your brain is SOOOO dumb. I clicked the video reluctantly, looked at the top right of the screen. Consumables. Clearly has a Greater Arcane Elixir up. "No consumables"? Why are you even arguing anymore. At least make a compelling argument... Example of a compelling argument: "He didn't have to use a mana pot during his Magmadar encounter etc etc etc". This would be weak, because Mag is a super easy fight, but at least it would be a talking point. Instead, you just boldly state that there are NO CONSUMABLES being used. Within 2 seconds of looking at the video, you're wrong. Do you even understand what a consumable is? Stop trying to pipe up and jump to Duki's aid, you're actually making him look bad. Stop... Take a breather. Think about what you want to say and then contribute to the conversation in a meaningful way. You're both so emotional that you aren't looking at this objectively. Prot paladins are suboptimal. No one here is advocating that you cant tank as a prot paladin. I am saying that it is not worth it. If you disagree and think that it IS worth it, you should play one.



Look at the top right of the screen. Thats where your buffs are listed.

Greater Arcane Elixir is a consumable.
https://classicdb.ch/?item=13454

2 seconds into the video I stopped watching. Thats how long it took me to derail your point. For all I know more consumes were used, but thats about as much effort as I am willing to put in to pat you on the head and settle you down.

Single Elixir wont change much or nothing at all , especially as it can be seen on the Video threat was by huge margins higher than the Raid Group threat. So with or without that Elixir, the kill would have been done and nothing would be changed.



Here is your Skarm using shit tons of Consumables as Warrior Tank.

Makes your point suboptimal.

As @Selexin said I am quite familiar with these "fringe tank/dps specs" and their limits and happy to talk about it more on another thread. Whether it be warlock tank, rogue tank, mage tank, etc... just feel free to @ me. There is more to these specs than meets the eye.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Yes they are. HIGHLY based on consumables in fact. You dont plan on using dark runes or mana pots and youre going to play a prot paladin? No engineering? Any of the other pallies in here want to back this guy up? I have heard some wild things in this thread but nothing quite that wild.

Bolded for emphasis on what I believe @Stfuppercut was really getting at here.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Here is your Skarm using shit tons of Consumables as Warrior Tank.

I see buff type consumes, but I never saw any engineering, pots, or any of the special items on his bar meant for emergencies or special situations go on CD. If I missed something please point me to the area in the video that he used them.

But as for the buff consumes, if you look to the end of the video you'll see that he wears them even when he is in Full T3 on his real tank. Dreadnaught versus Molten Core is a joke, but he's got them on anyway. Why? Because the dude plays his best 100% of the time, clearly.

If "big" Skarm is wearing Consumes without needing them, how are we to know if Lilskarm needs them? He had all his special consumes in his bags and never reached for them. Some of which, by the way, a Prot Pally could never use such as the Limited Invulnerability pots because the Pally would be chugging mana pots, non-optionally and on a regular basis every fight along with dark runes and anything else they could get their hands on. Same with engi items: they have to pull. They're not for special cases, they're for all the time.

And while I would love to find a video of a Warrior tanking without any type of consume, buff or CD use, it likely doesn't exist for the same reason that there is next to no talk of mages trying to raid with Arcane Missles as their primary DPS method. The people who play these classes don't play them to roll janky half baked combos, they play them to do their best.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Single Elixir wont change much or nothing at all , especially as it can be seen on the Video threat was by huge margins higher than the Raid Group threat. So with or without that Elixir, the kill would have been done and nothing would be changed.

WTH you have THUNDERFURY ON! No duh the threat was high.

And also you are clearly demonstrating my earlier point that you need Dwarf Priests for fear ward: you are requiring other people to min/max so that you don't have to.

An extremely selfish outlook. Ordinarily you require min/maxing because you already are and want to be with like-minded people, not because you need them to carry you.

Linguine wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Yes they are. HIGHLY based on consumables in fact. You dont plan on using dark runes or mana pots and youre going to play a prot paladin? No engineering? Any of the other pallies in here want to back this guy up? I have heard some wild things in this thread but nothing quite that wild.

Bolded for emphasis on what I believe @Stfuppercut was really getting at here.

I am still waiting for his reply to my longpost. But seeing he reacted to your post but didn't bother to provide examples I asked for, I believe we can safely ignore Stfuppercut's statements.

Tankadins do NOT require using ANY mana potions or runes. Using them is OPTIONAL, not mandatory.
Tankadin uses Judgement of Wisdom to replenish mana during a long fight.