You could apply that to a lot retail features I guess. LFG next? LFR? Where do we stop? Haha. I agree that it will happen, but that doesn't mean everyone will agree with it.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoThis debate honestly reminds me of prohibition. We all know how that goes...
Lvl 60
Lvl 35
Naw, those aren't even remotely similar. Gold will be sold. The token or bots/gold sellers. Choose one. Sharding wont happen unless Blizzard implements it. LFG doesn't happen without Blizzard allowing it to happen. Completely different... Honestly a weak attempt at a counter argument.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
@Stfuppercut PvP Ranking Bots will happen, map exploit bots will happen - Will Blizzard provide tokens for those too? Because they will sure as shit exist in the black market.
You don't get to decide what kind of counter argument someone can make on a public forum dude, it is what it is. If you don't think it's worthy don't respond?
Lvl 60 Lvl 35
I'm a bit late to this awesome thread but just wanted to opine on this. I just don't like legitimising the purchase of gold with real money.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoNaw, those aren't even remotely similar. Gold will be sold. The token or bots/gold sellers. Choose one.
Whilst all the arguments for out-competing bots and destroying the black market etc. stand strong and make a lot of sense, you're still making it easy, encouraging even, people to purchase gold that doesn't already exist inside the game. Click the big old wow token logo, hand over your credit card and you're done - pay 2 win.
For people to get gold like that through a bot or farmer, sure it'd still be possible but there's also the fear of being banned from the game, or scammed out of your money which stopped a lot of players from getting involved in stuff like that in the first place, bringing the number of participants down significantly.
Most people here on this forum anyway seem to fall into the 26-30 age category - tell me honestly if you're in this demographic and you are really willing to spend insane hours on the game to be able to play enough to afford a token rather than forking out just 15 bucks at the end of the month to play?
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The gold does exist in the game. That is the difference. A bot creates black gold. New gold that wouldn't exist. A token takes gold that was LEGITIMATELY earned by a player and already existed, and allows him to trade it to another player in exchange for game time. No new gold is created and thus the token is better for the economy. Much. MUCH better for the economy.
I am in this demographic and to be clear I don't want the token... I believe the economy will need the token. The token is less disruptive than the alternative. In an ideal world, we woudlnt need either but this isn't an ideal world. I also would not use the token, as I have not on retail. However, the positive impacts of the token in retail are indisputable.teebling wrote: ↑5 years agoMost people here on this forum anyway seem to fall into the 26-30 age category - tell me honestly if you're in this demographic and you are really willing to spend insane hours on the game to be able to play enough to afford a token rather than forking out just 15 bucks at the end of the month to play?
edit: incomplete sentence
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
I'm 32 and might actually make use of the token for the convenience of an Epic Mount, if given the chance.
I would most certainly not buy gold from an illegitimate seller.
Also I just thought of this:
Imagine a scenario where buying Tokens with illegitimate gold is cheaper than a WoW subscription 
Rinku < the Druid > - For the HORDE - Gehennas, EU
Okay that’s understood - so it makes my point there moot.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoThe gold does exist in the game. That is the difference. A bot creates black gold. New gold that wouldn't exist. A token takes gold that was LEGITIMATELY earned by a player and already existed, and allows him to trade it to another player in exchange for game time. No new gold is created and thus the token is better for the economy. Much. MUCH better for the economy.
Still not in the spirit of classic IMO - why should you be able to buy an epic mount with IRL money now when you couldn’t then? It takes the epicness out of it completely.
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Although I understand a token might be beneficial to our in-game economy, I just don't think I would want it in a game. You'll see a lot of people dinging 60 and moments later they are all riding their epic mount. This takes away a looooot Classic WoW is all about. We put in hours and are rewarded with something we worked really hard for.
Agreed. It gets a bit more challenging when you accept that bots/gold sellers will exist either way. If we accept that gold sales will ALWAYS be a part of the game, the game will always have a pay to win element. This is where I lean in favor of the token. Without the token, the game remains pay to win and gold farmers ruin the greater economy and the game. Their impact trickles into every aspect of the game and even shifts the PvP meta by making consumes more readily available due to market saturation. With the token, the game is pay to win but the greater economy is not affected.
The truth is, with or without the token you will never really know if the guy riding the epic mount purchased gold.
I wish that we had some sort of data on whether the token increases the quantity of gold traded between users. In my opinion, if we could prove that the token increased the amount of gold being traded, there would be a strong case in opposition of the token. Without that, the token just seems to be the better option for the health of a server. While 3rd party sites are a deterrent for some users, they actually incentivize other users by being more negotiable, trading in a variety of goods like accounts and boosts and offering a higher value for gold - $ (pending current rates/ how fresh the server is).
One of the biggest issues gold farmers had to contend with during retail vanilla was not the anti cheat software, rather the overhead of running bots. A gold farmers profit margins were VERY small. Why? They could typically only run 1-2 copies of the game on their computer. They had the cost of the game AND the sub fee. The cost of the bot. They had to run their bots on MANY servers, and remember server caps were only 3.5-4.5k during retail vanilla. With layering spiking servers up in population farmers wont need to spend as much time and money creating a gold bank on numerous servers. Instead they will be able to accommodate a larger player base on fewer servers. Let alone the implications of being able to shift your bots to various phases and further abuse layering. What will the overhead be like in Classic? No base cost to the game. Sub fee. Free bot. Computers that can run as many copies of the game as the farmer needs. Less accounts needed due to fewer servers (presumably based on higher player potential on each individual server). Now lets consider the players who will be returning to Classic...
Do you think that demographic will be MORE or LESS inclined to buy gold as busy adults with careers than they were as broke children with nothing but time? What about the tourists that come from retail? What about the generation of gamers that are used to micro transactions? How about when we consider that the social ramifications of cheating, aren't associated to gold buying because the token already exists in retail and buying gold IS a part of the game, and has been for some time. When we look at the ease of access to setting up a bot, the lower overhead and the potential for demand, gold selling could become a major issue. An issue that could be solved with the token.
I HATE the idea that we need a token. I hate the idea that other users would flock to a game designed for its challenge, a game that appeals to users who desire a challenge and that those same users would buy gold to reduce the difficulty of the game. But they will. A lot of them will. This market is huge.
I've actually been really interested in this topic for the past week or so and have been reading a lot of old articles. Its pretty crazy when you start to think about ALL the money being made as a result of no token and ALL the facets of gold selling.
"At its height, gold farms in China comprised a nearly $1 billion cottage industry. As many as 100,000 workers were employed full-time in these virtual mines, and many of them pulled 12-hour shifts (as does Jeremy, by the way). Many employees are earning only about 10 cents on the dollar for gold gained. "They rack up gold really fast," says Jeremy. "And because it's all virtual, there's no quality issues associated with it."
"Jeremy thinks he has only a few years left in his job, and here's the big reason: The games finally gave in and just let players buy the gold directly. In a limited capacity, anyway -- if you're a player looking to buy your way to better gear in WOW, you can buy a $20 token that can then be traded in an in-game auction house for gold. The purchaser of the token can't redeem it for cash -- they can use it only toward free months of their game subscription (to prevent farming). Jeremy says the decision caused a panic among the gold farming community. And although the demand for black market gold still exists, Jeremy has seen his income fall, despite putting more hours in this year than last."
This is why the anti cheat system is redundant. They will run bots. If they cant (they will be able to but lets pretend), they will simply farm. Whichever way you slice it, these guys are going to come back in force, and due to various factors that will influence demand, we may see more demand for gold than we ever had before.
References:
https://www.cracked.com/personal-experi ... ities.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/17/maga ... ers-t.html
edit: the game was always pay to win. The token just acknowledges it.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
The problem is, in my opinion, that far more people would be willing to buy a token than buy from a gold farmer. Between the ease and security of buying a token compared to buying from a sketchy gold farmer, more people would definitely buy a token. People who probably would not have ever bought from a gold farmer might consider buying a token. Now, we have people buying tokens left and right (presumably for the gold value) which creates inflation. Now, technically the token itself doesn't create inflation, the players grinding / farming gold in order to buy them does. Still though, the token leads to inflation this way. Gold farming is undoubtedly a pain to deal with and creates its own issues, but I think tokens actually do more damage to the game economy because they normalize obsessive gold farming in order to get next month's sub for "free", and entice people to buy them that normally wouldn't ever consider buying from some shady gold farmer.
I do accept that gold sales will always be a part of the game, agreed - that this will always be an aspect that can't be avoided. However, I think that you're equating the two as if they would be used to the same levels - it's like you're comparing the lesser of two evils, when really black market trading would constitute a very small number of players when compared to the full integration of legitimate RMT (real money trading).Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoIf we accept that gold sales will ALWAYS be a part of the game, the game will always have a pay to win element. This is where I lean in favor of the token. Without the token, the game remains pay to win and gold farmers ruin the greater economy and the game.
Wherever there is a legitimate means of bringing real money into the game (ie the token), surely this will be a more popular option than to seek out black market instead. Classic with tokens makes it very accessible to do this - illegitimate trades would still of course exist but there is no way in hell I will accept a prediction that this would be just as widely used as tokens would be!
Of course not, but were a token to exist the chances of him having bought that with $ and not with gold would be monumentally higher than they would be the other way around.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoThe truth is, with or without the token you will never really know if the guy riding the epic mount purchased gold.
Lots of interesting insights here but I think one thing you've yet to address is how much better games have gotten at finding bots. Network security, analysis and abuse detection is far more sophisticated now than it was in 2005.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoOne of the biggest issues gold farmers had to contend with during retail vanilla was not the anti cheat software, rather the overhead of running bots. A gold farmers profit margins were VERY small. Why? They could typically only run 1-2 copies of the game on their computer. They had the cost of the game AND the sub fee. The cost of the bot. They had to run their bots on MANY servers, and remember server caps were only 3.5-4.5k during retail vanilla. With layering spiking servers up in population farmers wont need to spend as much time and money creating a gold bank on numerous servers. Instead they will be able to accommodate a larger player base on fewer servers. Let alone the implications of being able to shift your bots to various phases and further abuse layering. What will the overhead be like in Classic? No base cost to the game. Sub fee. Free bot. Computers that can run as many copies of the game as the farmer needs. Less accounts needed due to fewer servers (presumably based on higher player potential on each individual server).
Classic is running on a modern client and modern cheat detection was stressed even as far back as Blizzcon 2018:
The smartest bots will make it through of course, but I don't think this is enough to justify black market trades being on par with legit trades in terms of popularity. It's still a very niche area, it's still going to be used by a small minority, of the many botters that attempt to farm the game many won't break the security, and of that minority actually purchasing black coin many will get caught and banned. Bringing a token in to fix this, IMO, is a crude 'fight fire with fire' strategy that solves botting problems by pushing them out of the market but also simultaneously diluting individual achievement in the game. Why not just focus more on pushing bots out of the game and turning a blind eye to the insignificant trading that does happen? Surely that is a far less harmful solution?Blizzard Entertainment
Additional improvements will include modern anti-cheat/botting detection, customer service and Battle.net integration, and similar conveniences that do not affect the core gameplay experience.
Dev watercooler, 15th June 2018
I think that demographic have access to more disposable income, so yes, more inclined. Remember when we were broke-ass kids tokens didn't exist so that option wasn't even there to begin with. As for tourists I don't really know what you're asking about - how will the fact that they are just transient players have an impact on how willing they are to pay money for gold? The very word tourist insinuates that they'll come for a trip then leave again, so regardless of what they may or may not do it won't have a lasting impact on the game.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoDo you think that demographic will be MORE or LESS inclined to buy gold as busy adults with careers than they were as broke children with nothing but time?
In retail that is the perception, yeah, but not in Classic. There was very much a stigma attached to purchasing in-game currency with real money back then. Why should it be different for Classic? Whenever GMs on pservers were found to be shifting items and services for real money fees there was always an outcry, and this was in recent times too.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoHow about when we consider that the social ramifications of cheating, aren't associated to gold buying because the token already exists in retail and buying gold IS a part of the game, and has been for some time.
Explain to me how you would, with ease of access, set up an efficient and undetectable gold farming bot for World of Warcraft: Classic.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoWhen we look at the ease of access to setting up a bot, the lower overhead and the potential for demand, gold selling could become a major issue.
Produced by bots or produced by farmers, the actual transaction of gold still has to be made between the two parties for the trade to be completed. How many of these transactions will actually be completed successfully after security? It could be a handful or it could be quite significant - it doesn't matter - it will never, ever be as many as tokens would allow.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoThis is why the anti cheat system is redundant. They will run bots. If they cant (they will be able to but lets pretend), they will simply farm. Whichever way you slice it, these guys are going to come back in force, and due to various factors that will influence demand, we may see more demand for gold than we ever had before.
On a slightly different note, I think that tokens encourage a weird playstyle which I have seen time and time again in different games. I played EvE Online for four years, hardcore. In EvE you can, like with tokens in WoW, make enough in-game currency to be able to afford a month's subscription.
What ended up happening for most folks I met, especially new players, was that they ended up missing out on the game's fun entirely because they became so obsessed with playing it for free, and spent their entire month's subscription farming to get their sub. They didn't participate in fights, or take new space, or join corporations, or learn new ships, or become spies and saboteurs, and all the myriad of incredible things possible in EvE because they were too busy making in-game currency. What kind of enjoyment is that? Just to be able to play for free? It's literally a tenner for a monthly sub - why not just pay that and actually enjoy the game?
Having an option like a token available to players opens up to people the illusion that they can play for 'free', when really they're expending weeks of their life in exchange instead.
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I've seen this argument a few times in this thread. If I wanted to use gold to buy a token for game time, I wouldn't do it on the classic server. Gold farming/the auction house economy would be too fresh, gold would be worth too much. I would just use a high level character on a retail server and get my gold there.centurion wrote: ↑5 years agoStill though, the token leads to inflation this way. Gold farming is undoubtedly a pain to deal with and creates its own issues, but I think tokens actually do more damage to the game economy because they normalize obsessive gold farming in order to get next month's sub for "free", and entice people to buy them that normally wouldn't ever consider buying from some shady gold farmer.
Pretty sure lots of people are in this same boat, and if that's the case Classic's economy wouldn't be affected as much because people would catch on quickly that it's not the quickest option for getting tokens.
So the hundreds of thousands of botters they successfully removed by shutting down public bot companies like Shitbuddy is redundant?Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years ago- Bots exist. They will exist. Blizzards anti hack software is redundant as I linked a working bot.
You're right. They should just remove anti-cheat and revert all the work they did, that way giant publicly available bots can come back in full force, like in Cataclysm and WoD! Brilliant! You're literally saying that there's no difference between 2% of the community botting, and 25% of the community botting. I'm absolutely puzzled by this stance.
It absolutely does. You're offering a way to purchase gold legally in-game, rather than only to a smaller sized market who is willing to lose their account over it i.e. buying from gold sellers.
How do you know? You don't, no one does. If anything, it just makes things worse because bots/gold sellers will still exist regardless of if there's a token. So if anything, you're just adding more poison to a cup of poison.
There's a difference between cheating P2W, and game design P2W. One is frowned upon by the developers and community, while the other is not. Regardless of morals - being allowed to skip the tedious grind that is vanilla defeats the purpose of the game.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoUsing the token acknowledges that the game is pay to win. While you can buy gold either way and the game will inevitably have a pay to win element, adopting the token accepts moral defeat and sacrifices our principals for the health and quality of the game.
Not to come off as an ass hole, I'm anything but - but your stance is very uninformed and heavily opinion based. As someone who has worked in the botting community, and private WoW server community as a developer and GM, anti-cheat is a life saver and shouldn't be looked down upon. The life cycle of many botters are typically short, and anti-cheat is a constant arms race against bot developers. Blizzard can update their game client, and force a public or private bot to be down for days. Once a bot developer has fixed whatever problem may have arose (offsets, function locations, injection method, etc) Blizzard shits out another patch just a day later. Does botting and gold selling affect the economy? Yes, but Blizzard removes, punishes, and prevents a large amount of this artificial inflation.
All adding a WoW token really does is lower the price of gold from private gold sellers (because there's less illegal buyers). It doesn't actually prevent them from farming materials and ruining the economy. Therefore, the WoW token does nothing for us except offer a legal way to purchase gold, which defeats the purpose of the game, and helps ruin the economy quicker.
Because remember, I could just buy cheap illegal gold from a gold seller and buy a WoW token ;).
Fairbanks - Alliance
US Ret Pally - Fairbanks - <Team Naked>
Yea, this has been echo'd throughout the discussion but we have no evidence to suggest this is the case. The token does not necessarily increase the gold being traded. The numbers we have on gold that was sold before the token, indicates that this market was HUGE. With an 8 million player count, there were over 100,000 chinese players farming virtual currencies. This doesn't account for all the bots. This doesn't account for all the players using personal bots. Gold sales were ALWAYS prevalent.centurion wrote: ↑5 years agoThe problem is, in my opinion, that far more people would be willing to buy a token than buy from a gold farmer. Between the ease and security of buying a token compared to buying from a sketchy gold farmer, more people would definitely buy a token. People who probably would not have ever bought from a gold farmer might consider buying a token.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
First of all, welcome back @Nenski , I knew you'd come around... =)
Gold sales were derailed by the token. Not the anti cheat software. The software is great. Anti cheat software will always increase in performance at the same rate that malicious users create new tech to break the ToS. This is a never ending cycle. We have bots that currently work in retail. Lets say they banned ALL the bots. You still have farmers. You still have 100,000 Chinese users disrupting the economy. The token answers these issues.
Naw. I didn't say that. Anti cheat is important, but it isn't as effective as the token is to deter botting. The token disrupted mass-commercialization of gold selling. Bots are primarily for personal use at this point. This is likely for two primary reasons in retail, the token destroyed profit margins on gold AND gold isnt valuable in retail. Again though, stop being so fixated on the bots silly... Gold farmers can also justify working for pennies per hour and farming the game as well. These players aren't raiding, they dont communicate with others, they mass purchase products on the server and cause incredible inflation. They are worse than a regular player who is actively participating on the server, selling his gold for money.Nenski wrote: ↑5 years agoYou're right. They should just remove anti-cheat and revert all the work they did, that way giant publicly available bots can come back in full force, like in Cataclysm and WoD! Brilliant! You're literally saying that there's no difference between 2% of the community botting, and 25% of the community botting. I'm absolutely puzzled by this stance.
The market for illegal gold was ANYTHING but small. You have no figures to suggest that the token increases gold being traded. I wish you did as this is the crux of your argument, but ya don't.
We do. The token doesn't disrupt the economy in the same way that gold selling does. The token takes legitimate gold and trades it between users. It has a VERY minimal impact on the economy. The token is the EXACT same as one player opening trade with another and giving him gold. The token is better for the economy than a botter or a gold seller who are massively impacting inflation on the server. Much better.
Is there? The result is the same. Perhaps you get to protect your moral high ground, but it wont change the outcome.
You don't understand how the ingame economy works, nor how the token functions. I'll get you to go back a few pages and read @Rinkusan post on basic economy to get you caught up to speed.Nenski wrote: ↑5 years agoAll adding a WoW token really does is lower the price of gold from private gold sellers (because there's less illegal buyers). It doesn't actually prevent them from farming materials and ruining the economy. Therefore, the WoW token does nothing for us except offer a legal way to purchase gold, which defeats the purpose of the game, and helps ruin the economy quicker.
Because remember, I could just buy cheap illegal gold from a gold seller and buy a WoW token ;).
I'm so glad you decided to stop by @Nenski , when you told me you were done with this thread I got pretty disappointed!
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
We don't know this. We DO know the black market for gold was MASSIVE. Absolutely massive! I previously equated this debate to prohibition, and for good reason. The repercussions of an act work as a deterrent but often aren't enough to dissuade the average buyer from participating in the illegal act. I could link all sorts of stats on alcohol and cannabis here but the short and sweet of it is, deterrents work to a certain degree but aren't a long term answer. When you consider that gold selling was a 1 billion dollar industry and that the Chinese were making pennies per gold sale, you need to stop and understand what sort of quantity of gold we are talking about... Massive gold was being moved during retail vanilla and BC. Massive. Since then, the demand has likely increased.teebling wrote: ↑5 years agoI do accept that gold sales will always be a part of the game, agreed - that this will always be an aspect that can't be avoided. However, I think that you're equating the two as if they would be used to the same levels - it's like you're comparing the lesser of two evils, when really black market trading would constitute a very small number of players when compared to the full integration of legitimate RMT (real money trading).
This is the strength of the token. The token disrupts gold sellers who are more impactful to the game.teebling wrote: ↑5 years agoWherever there is a legitimate means of bringing real money into the game (ie the token), surely this will be a more popular option than to seek out black market instead. Classic with tokens makes it very accessible to do this - illegitimate trades would still of course exist but there is no way in hell I will accept a prediction that this would be just as widely used as tokens would be!
See the statistics on gold farmers in China. MASSIVE gold was being moved. There is no indication that the token decreases the quantity of gold being traded, it simply removes the majority of the farmers and bots from the equation.
Sure. As are the bots. I previously linked a working bot at the start of the thread. A bot that has functioned for two expansions straight with no updates and has not been broken. A lot of people are getting hung up on the bot stuff. Lets say that Blizzard will ban ALL BOTS! (They wont.) Chinese gold farmers still exist and still cause the same issues farming gold by hand to a lesser extent. They are still disrupting the economy more than the token.
This is essentially the "solution" people opposed to the token are offering. We know the anti cheat tech isn't sufficient, because bots still work. We know Chinese gold farmers will destroy the economy with or without botting. We know that the gold farming industry was absolutely INSANELY huge during vanilla, BC, yet those who opposed the token would advocate closing our eyes, putting our fingers in our ears and humming while we play despite the ramifications for accepting servers flooded with bots and farmers. I don't consider that a solution. Ignorance is not a solution.
Players who are accustomed to buying tokens and purchasing gold have become accommodated with a pay 2 win feature that is built into the game. For those arguing that gold sales would increase with a token by normalizing the behavior and making it more available, surely you must think that players who come from retail and are accustomed to buying tokens would be more inclined to purchase gold? Especially players who are less invested in the project. I do believe that most tourists will come and go, but I also think the games having a shared sub will stimulate some cross-pollination and that many of these users may be inclined to stick around. Regardless, we will be seeing a lot of the psychology from Retail get transferred over to Classic because we have that shared sub.teebling wrote: ↑5 years agoI think that demographic have access to more disposable income, so yes, more inclined. Remember when we were broke-ass kids tokens didn't exist so that option wasn't even there to begin with. As for tourists I don't really know what you're asking about - how will the fact that they are just transient players have an impact on how willing they are to pay money for gold? The very word tourist insinuates that they'll come for a trip then leave again, so regardless of what they may or may not do it won't have a lasting impact on the game.
I will open google. I will type in "Bot 2019 Classic". I will find a link and download the bot. I will begin botting. Similar to how I found that fishmonger bot. I went to youtube. I typed in my search phrase. I was greeted with a lovely man who had created a bot and was willing to hand out codes for free pending a quick email. I imagine that bots like fishmonger will likely work in Classic, but if they don't, the dev's will make a patch to ensure they do function.
Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoThis is why the anti cheat system is redundant. They will run bots. If they cant (they will be able to but lets pretend), they will simply farm. Whichever way you slice it, these guys are going to come back in force, and due to various factors that will influence demand, we may see more demand for gold than we ever had before.
I would LOVE to be onboard with this sentiment, we just have nothing to use as a metric to prove that this is reality. There is no indication that the token increases gold being traded between users.teebling wrote: ↑5 years agoProduced by bots or produced by farmers, the actual transaction of gold still has to be made between the two parties for the trade to be completed. How many of these transactions will actually be completed successfully after security? It could be a handful or it could be quite significant - it doesn't matter - it will never, ever be as many as tokens would allow.
As far as the economy is concerned, that is good. As far as player retention is concerned, that is good. I cant speak for the health of the individual, but then I will probably do the rank grind in Classic and that wont be very healthy either.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
No WoW tokens. This is just Blizzard's way of not paying to have people check reports of botters to see if they're legitimate, or investigate shady dealings, same as how we're not getting the same level of GM support as back in the old days.
And it is distinctly not vanilla in flavor.
If you already know you're getting less support, wouldn't that be a great reason FOR the token?Linguine wrote: ↑5 years agoNo WoW tokens. This is just Blizzard's way of not paying to have people check reports of botters to see if they're legitimate, or investigate shady dealings, same as how we're not getting the same level of GM support as back in the old days.
And it is distinctly not vanilla in flavor.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
Enter credit card info to Blizz. Enter it to 3rd party site. Seems like a pretty similar barrier to purchasing gold to me. This is probably why the market for gold during retail vanilla was massive. 100,000 employed gold farmers. Some of them operating numerous bots. What percentile of the playerbase was buying gold with 8 million subs? Good lord, it must have been a SHITLOAD.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
I don't think Centurions argument is based on evidence so to speak - it's more just an observation of the average guy weighing up the pros and cons of going to a gold seller against the rules. Considering how much time is invested into a vanilla character, would you be willing to risk having your account banned to engage in illicit RMT? I know I wouldn't.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoYea, this has been echo'd throughout the discussion but we have no evidence to suggest this is the case. The token does not necessarily increase the gold being traded. The numbers we have on gold that was sold before the token, indicates that this market was HUGE. With an 8 million player count, there were over 100,000 chinese players farming virtual currencies. This doesn't account for all the bots. This doesn't account for all the players using personal bots. Gold sales were ALWAYS prevalent.centurion wrote: ↑5 years agoThe problem is, in my opinion, that far more people would be willing to buy a token than buy from a gold farmer. Between the ease and security of buying a token compared to buying from a sketchy gold farmer, more people would definitely buy a token. People who probably would not have ever bought from a gold farmer might consider buying a token.
On the other hand, seeing as you're citing figures quite generously to justify your argument for the WoW token's success it wouldn't be unfair to ask for your sources on these.
I thought we were comparing the predicted number of token trades with 3rd party trading - in which case we should be measuring everything relative to each other rather than hyperbolising?Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoWe don't know this. We DO know the black market for gold was MASSIVE. Absolutely massive!
We both seem to be on the same page that real money shouldn't have anything to do with Classic WoW but we're disagreeing about what would contribute more to this.
To put it clearly, I argue that were the two modes of trade available in-game, that trades completed through a legitimate source would outnumber those made illegitimately. My reasons for believing this are based on behaviour which I'm sure anyone reading can sympathise with - which is that when a player is faced with the dilemma of having to take a risk to gain gold with real money through a 3rd party, most wouldn't do it for fear of retribution.
So you agree with me then - deterrents do indeed bring the total number of customers down, which brings the demand down, which in turn brings the impact of synthetic gold down. Of those who decide to buy shady gold, some are removed from the game remember, which means they're also a non-factor. The token on the other hand actively encourages people to bring real money into the world.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoThe repercussions of an act work as a deterrent but often aren't enough to dissuade the average buyer from participating in the illegal act.
I am well aware that competition from Blizzard will drive down prices of other parties - you're not responding to my argument with this statement though, which is not within the scope of the point I am trying to make.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoThis is the strength of the token. The token disrupts gold sellers who are more impactful to the game.teebling wrote: ↑5 years agoWherever there is a legitimate means of bringing real money into the game (ie the token), surely this will be a more popular option than to seek out black market instead. Classic with tokens makes it very accessible to do this - illegitimate trades would still of course exist but there is no way in hell I will accept a prediction that this would be just as widely used as tokens would be!
No, in your own words, it disrupts competing sellers - it does not eliminate them completely.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoSee the statistics on gold farmers in China. MASSIVE gold was being moved. There is no indication that the token decreases the quantity of gold being traded, it simply removes the majority of the farmers and bots from the equation.
This bot is just an automated clicker for a very unsophisticated in-game task. It uses inertia on the mouse movement to emulate human movement - which it doesn't do very well either. The cursor always arrives into the 'search area' from the same position, moves on the same trajectory, clicks the bobber at the same interval of time, and then makes the same movement SW-E-NE after clicking.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoSure. As are the bots. I previously linked a working bot at the start of the thread. A bot that has functioned for two expansions straight with no updates and has not been broken.
This kind of interaction is very easily picked up by a machine and to be honest I'm very surprised by your claims that it has been able to stay relevant for two expansions without an update.
Bear in mind also that right click banning is in effect for Classic - vigilant players can spot a machine player intuitively and will, I am sure, make full use of this to bring to the attention of GMs any botting activity not already caught by blizzard's own automated guards.
Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoI will open google. I will type in "Bot 2019 Classic". I will find a link and download the bot. I will begin botting. Similar to how I found that fishmonger bot. I went to youtube. I typed in my search phrase. I was greeted with a lovely man who had created a bot and was willing to hand out codes for free pending a quick email. I imagine that bots like fishmonger will likely work in Classic, but if they don't, the dev's will make a patch to ensure they do function.
Well, I can't speak for other people - but I'm personally still hung up on the 'bot stuff' because I think you're really off the mark about actual botting with regards to how easy you think it is to make gold efficiently with them when applied to more complex in-game mechanics.
Linking an auto clicker bot for fishing isn't exactly the pinnacle of sophistication and fish aren't going to turn the WoW economy on its head.
So, I'm still challenging you to show me how you would, with ease of access (and that doesn't, by the way, involve potentially compromising your account details by emailing someone for a code), set up an efficient and undetectable gold farming bot for World of Warcraft: Classic.
Ah! Now you're talking about a very different point which I wasn't ever purporting in my posts so far - about the economy.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoLets say that Blizzard will ban ALL BOTS! (They wont.) Chinese gold farmers still exist and still cause the same issues farming gold by hand to a lesser extent. They are still disrupting the economy more than the token.
I'm not an economist and to be honest I don't really understand things like inflation and all that jazz - hence why I haven't actually mentioned anything about economics or anything of the sort in any of my posts so far. I don't like to talk about things I don't know about.
Please refer to my original argument which is that more real money - which we've already established is bad - will enter the game through the token. I just don't want to see people buying success in WoW becoming the normal thing to do, which is what your solution will result in, as you have said in reference to retail already (see your quote below):
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. By bringing a retail feature like tokens into WoW Classic you would be enabling people to do that.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoPlayers who are accustomed to buying tokens and purchasing gold have become accommodated with a pay 2 win feature that is built into the game.teebling wrote: ↑5 years agoI think that demographic have access to more disposable income, so yes, more inclined. Remember when we were broke-ass kids tokens didn't exist so that option wasn't even there to begin with. As for tourists I don't really know what you're asking about - how will the fact that they are just transient players have an impact on how willing they are to pay money for gold? The very word tourist insinuates that they'll come for a trip then leave again, so regardless of what they may or may not do it won't have a lasting impact on the game.
For those arguing that gold sales would increase with a token by normalizing the behavior and making it more available, surely you must think that players who come from retail and are accustomed to buying tokens would be more inclined to purchase gold?
You've sort of shot yourself in the foot with this - you agree then that tourists will come and go, like I said, and therefore you must also agree that the most incentivised token-gold buying persons, according to you, will no longer be participating in the game, which means less of a long-term impact.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoI do believe that most tourists will come and go, but I also think the games having a shared sub will stimulate some cross-pollination and that many of these users may be inclined to stick around. Regardless, we will be seeing a lot of the psychology from Retail get transferred over to Classic because we have that shared sub.
Will we be seeing a lot of the psychology of retail get transferred over to Classic? Yeah for sure. There will be a lot of people coming over, and some to stay too. Have you considered however the reason that these people might indeed stay is because they do not want retail features such as real money purchases? Should we be encouraging features that weren't in 1.12 to also be transferred across to Classic?
You've mentioned metrics, indications and data a lot in your posts - please just use some good old fashioned common sense here my man:Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoI would LOVE to be onboard with this sentiment, we just have nothing to use as a metric to prove that this is reality. There is no indication that the token increases gold being traded between users.teebling wrote: ↑5 years agoProduced by bots or produced by farmers, the actual transaction of gold still has to be made between the two parties for the trade to be completed. How many of these transactions will actually be completed successfully after security? It could be a handful or it could be quite significant - it doesn't matter - it will never, ever be as many as tokens would allow.
Will the average guy risk having his hard-earned characters deleted to buy 'farmed' gold? No, he won't. If 100% risk free and legitimate (and encouraged/promoted) tokens were available for him to pump real funds into the game, would he do that? Yes, he will.
I'm sorry but no matter how many numbers you throw at this argument (and don't forget the sources please since you have already used them), you're ignoring some very basic considerations like this.
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There was a massive market for gold back in 2004-2007. So whether you or I would engage, is irrelevant. Gold farming was a 1 billion dollar cottage industry. 100,000 employees servicing 8 million users in 2007. A very high portion of the userbase was buying gold. Very. Very. Very high. I'm not sure what percentage of these employees were working exclusively within warcraft? I will find those sources later when I have time.
Linked references above. Those references have several sub-links and related articles as well if you are interested.
We don't have the numbers on the token. We have some general figures for gold sales during retail vanilla/BC. These figures are valuable for context because it shows how prevalent gold farming was. The game was always pay to win. Where we get into my opinion, is when I am predicting the demand for gold and how it will increase during Classic. This is my own conjecture. I think the demand will be higher. It very well could be less. I think it will be higher though.teebling wrote: ↑5 years agoI thought we were comparing the predicted number of token trades with 3rd party trading - in which case we should be measuring everything relative to each other rather than hyperbolising?Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoWe don't know this. We DO know the black market for gold was MASSIVE. Absolutely massive!
Yes. I just accept that it always has been a part of the game, and that it always will be. The token dramitcally mitigates the affect of gold buying on the greater economy.
No. Deterrents do exactly as they are meant to do, they deter would-be users from buying gold. This CAN work, but is not a long term solution. This is a preliminary response to a negative behavior; deter the act. This is the same for any sort of prohibition. This will deter some users from buying gold initially. The decriminalization of an act is not correlated with an increase in overall use in most cases. Prohibiting alcohol did not decrease use. Legalizing cannabis does not increase use. People who are advocating that buying from 3rd party sites drastically reduces gold buying are lacking two things: Evidence that the token increases gold being traded AND they fail to acknowledge the GIGANTIC amount of gold sellers during vanilla/BC that were participating in a 1 billion dollar industry. An insane quantity of gold was ALWAYS being traded and sold. Always. The game WAS/IS/AND WILL BE pay to win in some regard.teebling wrote: ↑5 years agoSo you agree with me then - deterrents do indeed bring the total number of customers down, which brings the demand down, which in turn brings the impact of synthetic gold down. Of those who decide to buy shady gold, some are removed from the game remember, which means they're also a non-factor. The token on the other hand actively encourages people to bring real money into the world.
Correct. It disrupts the sellers. The player can still pay to win. Though his actions are only affecting him and not the greater economy. He would have that same epic mount with the farmers OR with the token, the difference is that the greater economy isn't suffering for his actions to the same extent.
Yes. SUPER basic bot. I've had this same debate with about 5 other users at this point, but I'll recap. The outcome is the same. Regardless of how complicated and capable the bot is, or how simple and basic it is, the bot fishes for you endlessly and rapes the economy. The outcome is the same. Granted, when there is money to be made for developing new tech for a gigantic userbase in Classic, I'm sure we will see better technology for bots.teebling wrote: ↑5 years agoThis bot is just an automated clicker for a very unsophisticated in-game task. It uses inertia on the mouse movement to emulate human movement - which it doesn't do very well either. The cursor always arrives into the 'search area' from the same position, moves on the same trajectory, clicks the bobber at the same interval of time, and then makes the same movement SW-E-NE after clicking.
Watch the video. Read the comments. Not my claims. The claims of the users. I have never botted. I have only been the victim of them.
For any of us who understand the economy and the potential for what a bot can make, this wont be effective. The start up for a bot is lower that it has ever been and the profit margins are higher.teebling wrote: ↑5 years agoBear in mind also that right click banning is in effect for Classic - vigilant players can spot a machine player intuitively and will, I am sure, make full use of this to bring to the attention of GMs any botting activity not already caught by blizzard's own automated guards.
It doesn't need to be sophisticated. This is the hurdle we cant seem to surpass with many users in this conversation. I'm not sure if you guys understand the impact of mass fishing. Bear in mind, fishing is one very small aspect of botting/gold selling etc... But its impact is fucking HUGE. We're talking mass inflation on the economy, we're talking MASS quantities of consumes at dirt cheap prices completely changing the meta of PvP, insane quantities of black gold being reinvested into the economy to control monopolies on valuable commodities, the list goes on and on... Is your argument that the fishing bot I linked isn't complicated enough to matter?... What? It fishes. Endlessly. The outcome is the same.teebling wrote: ↑5 years agoWell, I can't speak for other people - but I'm personally still hung up on the 'bot stuff' because I think you're really off the mark about actual botting with regards to how easy you think it is to make gold efficiently with them when applied to more complex in-game mechanics.
Linking an auto clicker bot for fishing isn't exactly the pinnacle of sophistication and fish aren't going to turn the WoW economy on its head.
So, I'm still challenging you to show me how you would, with ease of access (and that doesn't, by the way, involve potentially compromising your account details by emailing someone for a code), set up an efficient and undetectable gold farming bot for World of Warcraft: Classic.
It was always the normal thing to do. See how many farmers existed in retail vanilla/BC. See that the industry was a 1 billion dollar industry. The game has always been pay to win, whether you have participated in that or not.
No. I believe that at the very minimum, the demand for gold will be the same as it was in retail vanilla and BC, which appears to be massive based on what we know about the gold that was being sold at that time. At the very worst, a lot of tourists stay for a prolonged period of time and increase that demand. There is NOTHING to indicate that there will be LESS demand for gold. There are A LOT of factors that would indicate increased demand.teebling wrote: ↑5 years agoYou've sort of shot yourself in the foot with this - you agree then that tourists will come and go, like I said, and therefore you must also agree that the most incentivised token-gold buying persons, according to you, will no longer be participating in the game, which means less of a long-term impact.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoI do believe that most tourists will come and go, but I also think the games having a shared sub will stimulate some cross-pollination and that many of these users may be inclined to stick around. Regardless, we will be seeing a lot of the psychology from Retail get transferred over to Classic because we have that shared sub.
Yes, I have considered that. I have also played on private where people are buying insane quantities of gold despite the fact that they want to play vanilla. This is just the reality of the situation. People want to play, but people also want to win. Paying to win is the easiest way to get there, and so they will. With or without the token, as they always have. I am not a psychologist so I can't tell you why this phenomenon occurs.teebling wrote: ↑5 years agoWill we be seeing a lot of the psychology of retail get transferred over to Classic? Yeah for sure. There will be a lot of people coming over, and some to stay too. Have you considered however the reason that these people might indeed stay is because they do not want retail features such as real money purchases? Should we be encouraging features that weren't in 1.12 to also be transferred across to Classic?
Yes he will. Which is why gold selling was a 1 billion dollar industry in vanilla/BC. Would I? No. Would you? No. Is the risk lower now than it was then? Yes. Less overhead. Less upfront cost to the game. This will only make it easier for buyers to make that decision.
Again, I linked references and quotes from previous articles throughout the thread. Please read my posts in full. I have linked video evidence of bots, sourced old articles and done the best I can to shed light on these topics. I have not been receiving sources in return.
I was in a bit of a rush and deleted my original post =(. I whipped this one up to continue the conversation, but will reread it later and address the other points that I may have missed.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
No, because once someone has a poor solution and you complain, they just point to their poor solution and claim that it's taken care of. Condoning gold buying isn't a real solution to gold buying. Free high level characters wasn't a real solution to power levelers either. Blizzard just got in on the action and the money.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoIf you already know you're getting less support, wouldn't that be a great reason FOR the token?Linguine wrote: ↑5 years agoNo WoW tokens. This is just Blizzard's way of not paying to have people check reports of botters to see if they're legitimate, or investigate shady dealings, same as how we're not getting the same level of GM support as back in the old days.
And it is distinctly not vanilla in flavor.
A person in my old guild bought gold a while back on a private server. Got banned. Lost all the gear he'd been given and had to start over. Admitted he did it and apologized to everyone in the guild since we'd just given him a Nightfall. Never got his account back.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoYes, I have considered that. I have also played on private where people are buying insane quantities of gold despite the fact that they want to play vanilla. This is just the reality of the situation. People want to play, but people also want to win.
Did he win? I wouldn't say so, but if WoW token existed he'd never have been banned. It seems more like the advocacy of the WoW token is the advocacy that there should be no consequences for gold buyers, or not even a possibility of a consequence.
Accepting that gold sales are inevitable and using the token to mitigate their effect, is a solution. A solution that has demonstrated effectiveness. Banning gold sellers/buyers has never worked. Ever.Linguine wrote: ↑5 years agoNo, because once someone has a poor solution and you complain, they just point to their poor solution and claim that it's taken care of. Condoning gold buying isn't a real solution to gold buying. Free high level characters wasn't a real solution to power levelers either. Blizzard just got in on the action and the money.
The deterrent of being banned did not dissuade him. His only regret was getting caught. In the process of buying that gold he hurt the economy massively. There is no indication that the token increases the amount of gold being traded. Did he win? No. But a lot of people buy gold. A lot of those do win. That doesnt really matter to you and I though, because we wont purchase gold either way. Without the token, we lose on every gold sale. With the token, we lose less.Linguine wrote: ↑5 years agoA person in my old guild bought gold a while back on a private server. Got banned. Lost all the gear he'd been given and had to start over. Admitted he did it and apologized to everyone in the guild since we'd just given him a Nightfall. Never got his account back.
Did he win? I wouldn't say so, but if WoW token existed he'd never have been banned. It seems more like the advocacy of the WoW token is the advocacy that there should be no consequences for gold buyers, or not even a possibility of a consequence.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
Some more links for those interested.
Estimates for the amount of gold farmers during vanilla/early BC range between 100,000 and 500,000. These numbers do not account for bots which can drastically increase the amount of accounts operated by one individual farmer. It must also be noted that gold farming operations typically grind gold for multiple games simultaneously, so these numbers are likely not representative of farmers who were exclusively playing WoW.
http://www.mtv.com/video-clips/5eamj2/i ... ploitative
https://www.cracked.com/personal-experi ... ities.html
"Another round of Blizzard bannings, quote:"In our continued efforts to combat cheating in World of Warcraft, more than 105,000 accounts were closed and over 12 million gold was removed from the game economies in Europe, Korea, and the US in the month of November." (Tobolds Blogspot, 2006)
The writer goes on to say "Excuse me for being cynical, but if 105,000 gold farmers together have only 12 million gold, then each gold farmer has less than 120 gold inventory on average. So either these guys are selling the gold faster than they can make it; or more likely Blizzard only banned the bot accounts, and not the distributor account that holds all the gold" (Tobolds Blogspot, 2006)
Selling gold faster than they could make it would be my guess. Most of the sites I have been looking at mention that farmers request a delivery expectation date. It sounds as if they were meeting work orders as they came in. These sellers were SO backed up with orders that they could not keep up with demand.
http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2006/12/bli ... rs-in.html
"Robin Chin is a gold farm boss. He demonstrates how his gold farmers make money - basically by staying in the same spot for an entire 12-hour shift, killing the same monster over and over again. Most play the world's top online game, the World of Warcraft"(NPR, 2007)
Bots or Chinese that farm endlessly. Either way, the gold will be generated. Where there is demand, there is market and someone will fulfill these orders!
Article mentions "Surveys show 20 percent of gamers admit to buying gold." Still working on finding original source... Will post if/when I can find it.
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/sto ... d=10165824 (NPR)
Jared Psigoda is the self proclaimed king of the Chinese gold farmers. When asked about the general details of his job Jared outlines that he works with "tens of thousands of studios that farm gold... Hundreds of thousands of people working in this industry with active accounts"(Jared Psigoda, 2010) Consider how many gold farmers that is... Consider HOW much gold is being produced, bought and sold. Consider the demand... Consider how much HIGHER demand could be in Classic?...
When asked about the future of gold farming and if it can be sustained, Jared says "if the game developer sells the gold themselves, we will not be able to compete." Jared works as a broker. Brokers are the face of gold selling. These are the big players. These are the Americans that run the massive gold farming websites. These guys take the order and then contact their endless supply chain of gold producers to fulfill an order. Jared's job and the entire infrastructure of gold farming relies on brokerage sales. When Blizzard facilitates these sales with the token, they replace Jared and nullify the farmers.
"This market (selling virtual currencies) operates almost exclusively in one game. 80-90% of gold sales operate within World of Warcraft (Jared Psigoda - During Wrath of Lich King)"
Jared mentions that gold is primarily generated in 3 ways. Farmed, cleaned and botted. Cleaned gold refers to gold that is stolen. Players accounts are logged into, items are disenchanted and all of their items are stolen. The cleaned account is then used for gold advertisement spam. Cleaned gold will be less of a concern due to modern security features like the Blizzard Authenticator.
(Interview with Jared Psigoda, 2010)
I'd love to see some sources that indicate the token increases the amount of gold being traded. The game was always pay to win. This market was enormous. Just because you are emotionally opposed to the token, does not mean that it isn't the best answer to contest gold selling. Just because you hate the idea that people will buy gold, does not dismiss the fact that it will be bought and sold with or without the token. The token IS the lesser of two evils.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
