Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I disagree with this. At a certain threshold of gear, the lower skilled player will still win. Classic is incredibly based on gear... Take a shadow priest in BWL+ gear and place him against a guy in blues. As soon as the priest rolls his dots, the fight has ended. Take a late game SL warlock who is AWFUL, and allow him to roll his dots and press drain life. The fight has ended before it even begun.

At a certain threshold of gear, yes. If the player is in full greens or full blues versus someone in full naxx gear, sure. That's why I used BWL gear in my example. In this game, skill factors in more than gear.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Quite the opposite. First person shooters are entirely reliant on skill. You typically wont be able to acquire much gear that others dont have access to if you are playing in a ranked ladder. In most circumstances everyone will have access to the same gear and winning or losing is dependent entirely on a players proficiency at the game. The most pure version of this would be a game like counterstrike.

You should do some research about first person shooters before posting your opinions. There is plenty of research done on them to suggest they have an artificial skill cap limiting how good you can get at the game. This makes it more fun for everyone since it's basically luck whether or not you win, thus it means even a "bad" player can win sometimes and enjoy the game and thus will play more often. Activision/Blizzard actually made a matchmaking system that they pattened which uses a similar algorithim, also googleable.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I challenge you to fight 3 BWL players, who are average, while you are wearing blue gear and win. The game just doesnt work that way... I'm not saying it cant happen, but it certainly doesnt happen consistently... Generally speaking, the player with worse gear (if the gear difference is significant) loses. Warriors get to the point that they can global people. Warlocks get to the point that 2-3 of their dots will end the fight in 15 seconds - late game destro locks are insane. Mages can quite literally pom pyro people at a certain gear threshold. The game relies on gear and to say otherwise is either disingenuous or a bit naive. Maybe youre just inexperienced, but it feels like youre being intellectually dishonest to push a specific narrative.

It sounds like you're trying to theory craft this, which doesn't work in PvP well. As someone who has, many times, defeated people in BWL gear while in full blues on my Hunter - it's definitely possible. Not only possible, but extremely easy when you know the game and the people you're fighting don't. I could also say like, "Well if those 3 people were warlocks all it would take is them to DoT you up and you die" - true. If those 3 players are Priest, Warrior and Hunter though, it's definitely possible to defeat all three of them before they defeat you.

And before calling me intellectually dishonest, I think you should look in a mirror. I've met many people like you in my life who assume someone else is wrong because you've thought of one minor way in which their theory could be proven wrong.... Sigh, it's the laziest way of thinking in the world. Everyone is wrong about everything and it's not hard to point out how (It's also not at all hard to find one exception that "proves" (notice the sarcastic air quotes) what someone is saying wrong). What's actually difficult is to think about how that person is correct and how they reached their conclusion. That takes effort and time and patience and requires you to step outside the realm of which you're comfortable. I understand your point of view and why you think the game takes no skill, but you don't seem to understand mine.

@almarsguides post a video of you taking 3 people in BWL gear while wearing blues please.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

@almarsguides post a video of you taking 3 people in BWL gear while wearing blues please.

I see that you’re completely unwilling to accept you may be wrong, since you want evidence that is impossible to provide to prove yourself wrong. Bwl isnt out yet so you’re making an impossible standard to prove yourself wrong.

Just use google and watch one of the thousand pvp videos out. This of course assumes you actually want to learn and not just argue/assert your ideology. A hunter with Ancient Bone Bow (scholo) can almost drop a priest with an Aimed Shot, Multishot, Arcane Shot rotation in BWL gear. It isnt hard to imagine someone in blues taking out 3 people, you must be a mostly PvE player cause you saw this all the time running premades grinding rank 14

almarsguides wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I see that you’re completely unwilling to accept you may be wrong, since you want evidence that is impossible to provide to prove yourself wrong. Bwl isnt out yet so you’re making an impossible standard to prove yourself wrong.

Just use google and watch one of the thousand pvp videos out. This of course assumes you actually want to learn and not just argue/assert your ideology. A hunter with Ancient Bone Bow (scholo) can almost drop a priest with an Aimed Shot, Multishot, Arcane Shot rotation in BWL gear. It isnt hard to imagine someone in blues taking out 3 people, you must be a mostly PvE player cause you saw this all the time running premades grinding rank 14

No I just think you're WAY off base. So much so that I doubt we'll be able to establish common ground.

FPS games are reliant almost entirely on skill, to say otherwise is silly.

Classic is a super casual game that is primarily a social experience. PvP within the confines of Classic is heavily impacted by gear. This is just... Factual. I mean, I dont think many people on this forum, nor that play the game would disagree with me.

In your example with a hunter dropping a priest, youre assuming the priest doesnt have a bubble up AND that the hunter crits. This is heavily reliant on RNG and the hunter still needs to contend with his 2 friends in BWL gear. I actually do a lot of PvP and PvE but I'm not the sort of guy to go on a text based forum and brag about my PvP prowess, because the people who do are typically garbage. You for instance will make dramatic claims but we're expected to take your word for it... You talk about the rank grind as an alternative to raiding, but then say you arent planning on doing it... You just seem like youre all talk and your take on the state of Classic and its challenges are just... Very naive.

You'll notice a pattern with my posts on the site. So long as there is an opportunity to establish common ground and move the conversation forward, I will be heavily invested in the conversation. But when someone is clearly out of touch, I just dial back my responses.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

FPS games are reliant almost entirely on skill, to say otherwise is silly.

hehe yea we won't find common ground if you think you're good at games cause you're good at call of duty or if you keep twisting my words around/making crazy assumptions. FPS games are reliant on skill but they have a skill cap, a very low one. Which means you can only get so good at them before everyone is as good as you are - even if they are a better player they're skill capped due to the game's design. There is plenty of information about this online:

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comment ... skill_cap/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Blackops4/comm ... _few_ways/

If you do a little bit of google research you'll find plenty of people discussing this very topic.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

In your example with a hunter dropping a priest, youre assuming the priest doesnt have a bubble up AND that the hunter crits. This is heavily reliant on RNG and the hunter still needs to contend with his 2 friends in BWL gear. I'm actually do a lot of PvP and PvE but I'm not the sort of guy to go on a text based forum and brag about my PvP prowess, because the people who do are typically garbage. You for instance will make dramatic claims but we're expected to take your word for it... You talk about the rank grind as an alternative to raiding, but then say you arent planning on doing it... You just seem like youre all talk and your take on the state of Classic and its challenges are just... Very naive.

Of course I am making assumptions, I did say "a person in blues that is good at the game can take out 3 people in BWL that are not good at the game" so, yes, I am assuming the 3 people are not good at the game and and don't bubble, as my example stated. It seems that you finally understand my original argument, when people don't know how to play, their gear doesn't matter as much.

Also, you're the one who assumed I was going to do the rank 14 pvp grind when I never even remotely implied I would. You seem to be the sort of person that doesn't listen to someone when they talk and just jump to conclusions about what they mean or what they plan to do.

almarsguides wrote: ↑

5 years ago

hehe yea we won't find common ground if you think you're good at games cause you're good at call of duty or if you keep twisting my words around/making crazy assumptions. FPS games are reliant on skill but they have a skill cap, a very low one. Which means you can only get so good at them before everyone is as good as you are - even if they are a better player they're skill capped due to the game's design. There is plenty of information about this online:

I dont play Call of Duty. Never said I did. Who is twisting whose words and making assumptions?

Also, I'm not sure if these two posts on reddit are what youre using as proof of your theory? Lol. "Two people feel the way I do and made reddit posts, see, do research, im right!"

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Also, you're the one who assumed I was going to do the rank 14 pvp grind when I never even remotely implied I would. You seem to be the sort of person that doesn't listen to someone when they talk and just jump to conclusions about what they mean or what they plan to do.

You have to realize that your perception of what Classic is, is incredibly skewed... You are multi boxing, you arent planning on being social and you arent planning on participating in any endgame content... Your experience is going to be very unique to you... You dont represent the majority and the version of Classic that you are playing, is not the same version that the rest of us are playing.

I'm not really sure what you're even arguing about at this point... Classic PvP is pretty reliant on gear. This is a fact, but why are you even arguing about it? You're multiboxing lol? Your version of the game and your experiences are entirely different than the rest of us. You arent even playing the same game, which is likely why we wont be able to find common ground.

But I'm not going to sit here and argue over who is better at PvP in Classic, because thats a pretty unproductive conversation to be had via chat. And based on your commentary, I'm pretty certain I know how competent you would be ingame anyhow.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I dont play Call of Duty. Never said I did. Who is twisting whose words and making assumptions?

I was being sarcastic and teasing you, not trying to assume. Because CoD is a game with a very low skill cap/ceiling and I have met people all the time who think they're good at games cause they're "good" at CoD.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments ... _ceilings/

Is another reddit post discussing it. I'm sorry if you wanted an empirical study done on this, all you're going to get is anecdotal responses - it's a video game. At least I am providing some evidence for my claims though, I am still waiting for yours!

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

You have to realize that your perception of what Classic is, is incredibly skewed... You are multi boxing, you arent planning on being social and you arent planning on participating in any endgame content... Your experience is going to be very unique to you... You dont represent the minority and the version of Classic that you are playing, is not the same version that the rest of us are playing.

Again, you're assuming how I am viewing the game is a result of me multiboxing. I don't know why you're assuming how I feel, how I reached my conclusions, how my perspective was formed........ I mean, you're not acting in good faith at all in this discussion. You're not even listening you're just assuming everything.

This is how you reached the conclusion about me doing the rank 14 PvP grind. I brought the rank 14 pvp grind up as an example of you being able to get epics without being very social (since you assumed that I said wow wasn't a social game due to me multiboxing................) and you assumed it to mean I was going to do the rank 14 PvP grind. Like dude, calm down and take a step back and chill out with assuming everything. Me being a multiboxer literally has nothing to do with any of the points I have made, I brought it up as an example of how you don't need to be social in this game, same with rank 14 PvP grind. I honestly don't know why you're making all of these wacky assumptions.

Also, i never said I wasn't participating in end game content either, I am going to be boxing on raids this week so, there's another assumption that's wrong.

almarsguides wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I was being sarcastic and teasing you, not trying to assume. Because CoD is a game with a very low skill cap/ceiling and I have met people all the time who think they're good at games cause they're "good" at CoD.

Sarcasm doesnt work well in chat. Also I'm not familiar with your life experiences or your personal vendetta against CoD players, so it wasnt likely that I would pickup on the joke. You must not interact with people often in a text based forum.

almarsguides wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Is another reddit post discussing it. I'm sorry if you wanted an empirical study done on this, all you're going to get is anecdotal responses - it's a video game. At least I am providing some evidence for my claims though, I am still waiting for yours!

No, its just that you present your opinion as fact and cite reddit posts that are general opinions from others as evidence. So? People have an opinion on something... That isnt anymore compelling to the conversation than your opinion or my opinion and isnt a credible source to strengthen your argument. Its just detracting from the conversation...

almarsguides wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Again, you're assuming how I am viewing the game is a result of me multiboxing.

Of course... Because your experiences shape your perspective. Duh.

almarsguides wrote: ↑

5 years ago

This is how you reached the conclusion about me doing the rank 14 PvP grind. I brought the rank 14 pvp grind up as an example of you being able to get epics without being very social (since you assumed that I said wow wasn't a social game due to me multiboxing................) and you assumed it to mean I was going to do the rank 14 PvP grind.

Right. Which is a safe assumption because you brought up the rank grind AND are multiboxing. PvP makes sense for a multiboxer and is a really good way to gear up multiple characters at the same time.

I just think youre pretty new to the game, youre excited, and the game isnt really what you make it out to be. I know you REALLY want it to be a skill-based MMO so that when you own people in PvP you can feel like a stud! But it just isnt... that... at all.

FPS games like Overwatch and Counter-Strike, due to their aiming mechanics have much higher skill caps than Classic WoW.

I am probably the best geared Rogue in all of Classic. I have participated in thousands of duels, world pvp fights, and battlegrounds throughout both Vanilla and Classic. A lot of the skill in Classic PvP is about knowledge and gear, not mechanics. You can't 1v3 semi-competent players, especially if they are in BWL gear. The highest skill cap class is the Mage.

almarsguides wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I just think youre pretty new to the game, youre excited, and the game isnt really what you make it out to be. I know you REALLY want it to be a skill-based MMO so that when you own people in PvP you can feel like a stud! But it just isnt... that... at all.

This summarizes just how incorrect you are about me. One google search of my username will tell you a whole lot about me.

I don't know what else to say to you, a conversation with you isn't that fun because you take things out of context and wildly misinterprete what a person is trying to say. I agree with the majority of what you've said about WoW being a "mostly" social game and I understand how, from your perspective, the game takes 0 skill (to you skill = reward). When I tried to show you a different view, you went full rage mode on me and we've ended on ad hominem attacks with you trying to assume my entire life up until now and what I have done with it (assuming I am new at the game, I have a personal vendetta against CoD players, that I PvP).

I think it's fair to say that Classic PvP requires less skill the higher the gear difference between the opponents are. If you take out gear difference from the calculation, what then comes to play is how the classes are built. Some classes counter other classes. Only way to measure skill is either by duelling and winning classes that are supposedly countering you (Warrior winning over mage for instance) or mirror duels (Warrior duelling warrior with equal gear) in my opinion.

Erik wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I think it's fair to say that Classic PvP requires less skill the higher the gear difference between the opponents are. If you take out gear difference from the calculation, what then comes to play is how the classes are built. Some classes counter other classes. Only way to measure skill is either by duelling and winning classes that are supposedly countering you (Warrior winning over mage for instance) or mirror duels (Warrior duelling warrior with equal gear) in my opinion.

100% agree with this.

The issue is that there is no performance bracket, there is no gate to keep premades fighting premades and world PvP isnt clean and cordial. So despite the fact that this statement is true, you will rarely fight an opponent on even ground. Add in profession advantages, consumes and a lot of other factors and while PvP is incredibly dynamic and unpredictable, it is also far less reliant on skill and far more reliant on preparation than other similar games.

Speaking of 3vs1, I did it once but you'll understand how it was possible.

I was lvl60 elemental shaman had good gear, but DM wasn't even out and I had no MC done yet. Also, because I played the EU closed beta, I had alot of more game knowledge then most players, and back then what shaman's / paladins could do was pretty arcane to the other faction.

Anyway, I was mining in Azshara in Vanilla and saw a mage and a priest. Both lvl60, the mage with alot of T0 (THE glass cannon set) the priest with some T0. I approached, dropped Grounding, Tremor and Mana Spring totems and purged the mage once. Then I did the elemental mastery chain lightning into earthshock combo (both auto crit if you time it right) and the mage was toast - all he did before was a sheep into my grounding totem and a ??? because of the immune message he got.

Priest was running towards me, and I saw, a also mostly T0 paladin joining the fight that I didn't see before.
Dropped a new grounding, while priest feared me with no avail, then purged the priest off all buffs, did firenova + chain lightning on both, timed a good max rank earthshock into the priest and followed up with lightning bolt spam until the priest also died. The paladin slammed a stun in my grounding totem and dpsed me with 1h / shield, only tried to heal the priest once, which I interrupted with a iron grenade.

Then over the next two minutes I killed the paladin slowly with flametongue weapon and 1h/shield, while interrupting his heals with r1 earthshock, fishing for a freecast for more chain lightnings. He wasn't even bad, used bandage in bubble and judging SoW on me, but being holy with just 1h and shield he doesn't had it.

There are probably so many things a player today could have done to counter it, let alone having Spy to tell you some shaman next to you is dropping totems. But with surprise, knowledge advantage and engineering I could 3vs1 back then, once.

I personally really love Arenas and it is one of the reasons I still play Retail. I don't however think Classic can handle it at all, the game is just not balanced around that kind of gameplay. Ill just wait to experience TBC if they ever decide to release it.