@OP, since I sounded a bit derogatory I should point out I got no problem with your approach and wish you good luck.

I think a lot of the friction comes from your choice of title... "How to succeed as a hardcore raider IN MY GUILD" maybe leads to a more respectful discussion. Thanks for starting the conversation though, it's interesting to see what different people think.

Meh let me not write a novel for you people who can't handle that; I'm sorry my attempts to parse out and respond to the many ideas presented was too much for some.

Most of the objections boil down to just pedantic cries about the use of the world social without actually reading (comprehending?) the content. Apparently "social" is a trigger word for cavemen.

Call it social, call it active, the emphasis I made throughout the entire document was qualities that foster group effort that are often lacking in the "I'm an elite hardcore player and better then you noobs, fuk noobs" types.

Being social doesn't mean being best friends or friends with everyone, it means you are there and recognizably present in the team and not annoying to be around. Active might be a better word for people who are triggered by the word social.

@ColdRain It seems to me that you have no idea what the pserver "hardcore" scene is actually like (has unfortunately become). I am guessing that you have great retail mythic experience and the hardcore you experience and describe is 100% accurate to that version of wow as I saw it while leading a mythic raid team. It is not what I've personally experienced on pservers or in actual vanilla.

The block quote where you tried to quote but did so poorly was in reference to pserver hardcore farming guilds, where the toxicity is well known (although not omnipresent (there are hardcore guilds that are not toxic)). I mean if you want a quick example of misogyny bleeding through look at Grizzly's recruitment video which features Johnnysins (love the video though ;).

I apologize I could have been more accurate in drawing a distinction from retail hardcore, but in my defense, I didn't because retail hardcore isn't even the same game as classic, vanilla, or pserver wow

@Dolamite Your last reply mirrors a lot of my experience, but I never rerolled, and I led my guild from level 30ish (when we formed back in 2004) until mid/late Tbc when I quit to go to law school. I too fondly remember silent farming runs of both bwl and mc with music in vent and then later ts.

The only nit I'd pick is that the advice of "if you want to be a hardcore raider - do it, don't suck, just fucking do it," is worthless non-advice because just do it doesn't help anyone actually do it (unless you are trying to be a motivational speaker. the "Your raid will bask in your tears if you fall by the wayside," portion of that advice is 100% accurate for most raiding guilds though regardless of how they label themselves.

As noted above the hardcore scene today in retail is completely different from what it was in vanilla, which is also completely different from most of the hardcore pserver guilds as well.

@Morph Thanks for the well wishes; I built the best of both worlds guild in actual vanilla and we're doing it again :) I don't know our exact ranking back in vanilla (in the days before accurate tracking and no xserver comms) but we were one of the only 2 horde guilds in naxx on our server. All this while actually liking each other.

@Lendryn

Lendryn wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Dolamite wrote: ↑

5 years ago

( TLDR plz )

Lne wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Again, though, I don't feel that there is anything wrong with hardcore asocial guilds (outside the inherent social dysfunction and toxicity that tends to be a part of them) you describe, I just know that it is not necessary, and to me, the accomplishments had in that environment ring hollow and unsatisfying.

@Lne is of such an ultra-elitist disposition that they find even hardcore breakneck guilds contemptible, but they don't have the balls to outright say it. The entire post repeatedly says as much then immediately qualifies and equivocates as in the quote above.

Actually, no I don't find hardcore breakneck guilds contemptible, they do some pretty impressive things and it takes both discipline and skill to do what they do. As I stated though, I find that type of play unfulfilling. I find toxic behavior contemptible and they are not always the same. This is the contempt that you misperceived.

But arguing that my advice for socials is worthless/inapplicable translates to accepting toxicity and inactivity, and fuck that noise.

@Meanderthal Everyone is triggered by the advice being for everyone but ignoring the advice means that the values don't matter and they do matter. They are in my experience the values most neglected and the ones that cause the biggest problems in developing hardcore guilds and that's why I provided the advice. Anyway thanks for trying to be less inflammatory.

Lne, since you're giving advice to everyone else I'm going to offer you a piece:

Try not to be condescending and call names whenever someone disagrees with you. You've said you value social competence in others, so maybe work on your own.

Apologies for saying this in public rather than via private message, but I'm not seeing a pm option.

Lne wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Most of the objections boil down to just pedantic cries about the use of the world social without actually reading (comprehending?) the content. Apparently "social" is a trigger word for cavemen.

Call it social, call it active, the emphasis I made throughout the entire document was qualities that foster group effort that are often lacking in the "I'm an elite hardcore player and better then you noobs, fuk noobs" types.

Being social doesn't mean being best friends or friends with everyone, it means you are there and recognizably present in the team and not annoying to be around. Active might be a better word for people who are triggered by the word social.

This is actually a huge difference. The difference between taking an active role in a guild (required for a hardcore raider) and being social (not required for a hardcore raider) is very different and a very important distinction should be made while using said terms. Hardcore guilds do have qualities that foster a group effort. In fact, this is the emphasis of a hardcore guild. The major group activity (raiding) is prioritized above all else. Prioritized above less important things (to hardcore guilds) like socialization for example.

Lne wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Actually, no I don't find hardcore breakneck guilds contemptible, they do some pretty impressive things and it takes both discipline and skill to do what they do. As I stated though, I find that type of play unfulfilling. I find toxic behavior contemptible and they are not always the same. This is the contempt that you misperceived.

You find this unfulfilling because you are not a hardcore player, nor are you part of a hardcore guild that is focused on progression. You are a social player and are more concerned with the social aspects of the game. Define toxicity. What you find toxic, I find value in. I don't want guild events and guild spam clogging up my chat box. I dont want a guild that is pulled in 3 different directions trying to micromanage peoples social interactions while simultaneously pushing content... I don't want low level players in my guild asking for assistance. I want a guild full of like-minded killers who are using their time to maximize their gear and throughput so that we down content as efficiently as possible. I want a raid team that demands competence and does not tolerate weak players. This is the atmosphere that I enjoy. I find many traits of social/casual guilds to be toxic, which is why the distinction between hardcore, casual and social is so important. You want a group of like-minded individuals to play with.

Toxicity is subjective... A new player having a social conversation on discord or telling a joke during a raid because he has voip privileges is, in my opinion, toxic. For many casual/social players, the idea of silencing raiders who are not part of the upper hierarchy of a guild is also likely toxic; we are two different groups of people with two very different definitions of toxicity.

When we are drawing out these definitions based on our own anecdotal experiences, you have to wonder at which point you're just wrong. How many people need to disagree with you and your definition of hardcore, before you simply accept that you are attempting to redefine the word to protect your own ego. You are a social player. You lead a social guild. You are not hardcore. Being hardcore is not superior to being social, they are just different states of raiding. If you feel as though being defined as a social is derogatory or demeaning, this is likely a self-projection due to your own vulnerabilities and issues with the terminology. We use this nomenclature as a means to identify the core philosophies or guiding principles of a set of people. While these principles are not set in stone, and guilds can take a hybrid approach to leadership, the definitions themselves are still important for identifying similarities in a specific demographic of players. Based on your advice to your new recruits, your guild places a VERY heavy emphasis on the social aspect of the guild, and thus you are a social raiding guild. Perhaps you take some inspiration from the hardcore experience and try to tailor your guild to be a progressive social raiding guild, but your guild places the MOST value on being social (as was implied by your tips). This would indicate that your are a Social Raiding Guild, which is different from a hardcore guild, and is different from a casual guild.

This is also why your hardcore raiding tips, are not valuable tips for a hardcore recruit and would be better suited for a social recruit in a social raiding guild. Tips for a social player will place an emphasis on socialization (as yours do). Tips for a hardcore player will place an emphasis on performance and optimization (as yours do not).

The hardcore recruit must provide value in the form of throughput and he will be valuable. If he creates a deficit, he will be disposable. Socialization will not be an important variable when considering if a new recruit is a strong guild fit from a hardcore raid perspective.

@Stfuppercut after this reply I'm not sure if you are misinformed, trolling, or so threatened by social elements that you will go out of your way to purge them from your definition of hardcore, but I'll try to focus on why you are wrong and not your motivations.

I explained in detail why the label of hardcore fits me and my guild and your suggested label is inappropriate.

You state we are not progression focused--we absolutely are.

As an experienced in-game and IRL leader, I just happen to know the value of group and team cohesion and the impact a rewarding social environment has on these aspects, so I don't neglect social considerations or pretend they do not matter.

That's the bottom line on our disagreement, but I'll expand below.

I'm not drawing out definitions based on my experience any more than you are.

But, as you are definitely,

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

drawing out these definitions based on [y]our own anecdotal experiences,

Let's look at actual definitions of hardcore as your definitions are throwing all kinds of things into the definition that aren't necessary/essential while excluding things that aren't mutually exclusive from what it means to be hardcore.

I'll just use the first result in a google search for a definition for ease and to avoid cherry-picking definitions; https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Hardcore_raiding
Hardcore raiding is used to describe a guild, guild alliance, or raiding organization that places focus on progressing and farming raid content. The term is contrasted by the term casual raiding.
Pros: In general fast raid progression; Access to the best loot in the game; Access to the top-level raid instances
Cons: Requires serious time commitment to the game; Often restrictions on classes, talents and loot access; Not accessible to new players.

By this definition, our guild is definitely hardcore. Our focus is on progression and efficiently farming content to gear for the next content, pvp, or our own edification. Additionally, we were among the fastest to progress in our vanilla days and cleared content while it was current on the private servers we played on. We require a serious time commitment (20 hours bar minimum (many of us will exceed 80 hours play a week), 12 hours scheduled raiding where needed); We require optimal raiding specs for classes as well as recruiting and bringing the optimal comp for the content. We have never had a problem with access to the top-level raid instances or the best loot in the game. We are somewhat accessible to new players so long as they are willing to learn and able to meet standards within a short window after starting.

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Casual_raiding
Casual raiding is a subjective term, used to distinguish raiding that is slower-paced than "hardcore raiding". The term is often used by guilds to indicate that their raiding is not as demanding as the average raiding guild on their server. Depending on the guild, they may require less of a time commitment, lower quality pre-guild gear, or may indicate that the guild is open to prospective raiders who have never set foot in a raid before.

Casual raiding guilds will have a set time to raid, but they are not mandatory. If players show up late to the start time, they will still be invited to the raid. If players leave early from the raid, there will be no punishment. If players want to skip a raid day and focus on other things in wow, it is perfectly okay.

Casual raiding guilds will take people into raids that have little to no experience. They will also take any player who wants to raid, even if their gear is not up to par for the raid. Casual raiding gives everyone the experience of raiding, no matter what their skill level is.
Pros: Offers access to raid content without serious time commitments.; Raid interaction tends to be more friendly and open to newer players; Often times fewer loot restrictions than hardcore raiding.
Cons:
It is much slower raid progression-wise than hardcore raiding; Class balance tends to be less stable since there are fewer restrictions; Loot distribution is far more random than in hardcore raiding and may be less rewarding to more dedicated players.

So based on the amount of stuff that doesn't apply to us (see strike throughs), casual raiding (the alternative to Hardcore) doesn't apply.

Let's just look at the definition of hardcore again first definition from google https://www.google.com/search?{google:a ... q=hardcore
Noun
1. the most active, committed, or strict members of a group or movement.
Adjective
1. highly committed in one's support for or dedication to something.

I would say our commitment level far exceeds that of most players, and my members are highly committed. We started recruiting actively 4 months before launch, we have a Test realm hosted by aws running a custom branch of vmangos updated to match all known classic values and maintained by professional software engineer, we are running two progressive raid teams and I manage the guild as my literal full-time job.

If our guild somehow doesn't meet the definitions of both wow hardcore raiding as defined by wowwiki and the first definition on google as well as the first definition of hardcore, then sure you are right I'm just trying to redefine words to protect my ego--I'm not.

I'm sorry if are threatened or confused by the idea that a guild doesn't have to throw a rewarding social environment out the window to be hardcore, and even more sorry that you haven't had the opportunity to be in a rewarding environment that excels.

I also apologize for being long winded, But before I retired my job literally focused on definitions and their applications, and in my understanding of the definitions, both colloquially as well as from my experience as a guild leader who has dedicated literal years of my life to vanilla wow, you are simply wrong.

I wonder who must

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

simply accept that you are attempting to redefine the word to protect your own ego

I don't care about protecting my ego, but I won't let definitions change just because your experience is different anymore than I'm suggesting you do so.

Nor will I be compelled by arguments that just repeated. Saying something more often doesn't make it more true.

Beyond this, this discussion has been pretty thorough and I've previously made the points I intended to as well as conceding that my title wasn't perfect or that I should have prefaced it that it assumes the fundamentals of hardcore raiding. I don't know what position you've had in your experiences with hardcore raiding, but I think that most leaders, in general, would understand the value of my advice.

Again I've had to remove so many more players from my raid team because of their failure in these areas than I ever had because of performance issues. And, you may pretend they don't have a serious impact on raid progression, but when the ineptitude of a raider in these area's start pissing off your raid team or driving away core raiders or new recruits then they definitely do.

I said it before, but it bears repeating, in vanilla hardcore raiding you did not have an endless supply of raiders where you could just ignore the social health of your guild. If your raid team lost a geared player for whatever reason it could be a significant blow, particularly if they were a tank or key healer. The importance of this may be forgotten by players who started in retail or play on private mega servers, but if classic has vanilla-like servers and doesn't have server transfers I again say leaders and raider ignore this advice at their own peril.

If you insist on distinguishing your own flavor of hardcore from mine I suggest that you label what you repeatedly go back to as breakneck or try hard hardcore. as to toxicity, there are generally recognized traits of toxicity in leadership and workplace studies and to quote, the top result from a search for toxic workplace https://www.theladders.com/career-advic ... -workplace

The hallmark characteristic of a toxic leader[Raider] is their narcissism. They are “all about” themselves. They view themselves as categorically brighter and more talented than anyone else around. As a result, they believe they are deserving of special treatment–the rules that apply to everyone else really are beneath them.

Toxic leader[Raider] consistently relate to others in a condescending manner, they take credit for others’ successes, and they manipulate others to ensure that they look good. Trust and teamwork deteriorate in their areas; they have a high turnover rate in their department, and they will eventually destroy the health of the organization.

I spoke earlier of the high turn over--Seen it repeatedly and indeed the arguments in favor of your definition have again implied a high turn over. I spoke of the impact on trust and teamwork. I'll gladly consider any further input you have on the topic so long as it's not a mere repetiion of what you've already said. In particular, I'd like to read your drafted definition of hardcore.

I appreciate your taking the time to put together a response that merits consideration as you have in your previous responses as well as your continued respectful manner in which you have conveyed them.

I apologize if I came across as condescending or insulting as meander indicated I had at least in some of my responses. I was admittedly frustrated by the repetition of arguments while sidestepping and not addressing what I stated (as well as the direct condescension of coldrain) and this unfortunately affected my response.

@Meanderthal I don't believe I ever called anyone names for disagreeing with me. As far as I can tell the only name I used was cavemen and that was the label chosen by the person I was responding to.

That said, I'm sorry if my frustration led me to be more careless with my words or sound condescending.

@Lne It seems you are beyond being reasonable and are more invested in winning a battle that never existed, than understanding what all of us were trying to explain to you. I began typing a very long post to rebut your points, as you are a little out of touch, but I feel as though its best to remove myself from the conversation because I don't see this ending constructively and I honestly have nothing of value to help move the conversation forward because our perspectives seem to be too different. What started with a solid base of common-ground seems to have deteriorated very quickly... Best of of luck with your social guild, I hope you can find some social hardcore players to socially hardcore the game with! While I jest at your expense, I genuinely do hope you can find people to play with.

For players looking for actual tips on how to succeed in a hardcore guild that is prioritizing throughput and optimization, dont expect a social experience and ensure that you are prioritizing throughput and optimization. These are the things that will matter to hardcore players.

@Stfuppercut Yeah, I agree our perspectives are too different.

You want to ignore the actual definitions of the words and stick with your own take on it. That's ok, strange, but ok.

Thank you for the well-wishes; to the extent they were genuine you can rest easy knowing that I have incredibly talented people on my roster from all over the world and we are already polishing raiding and our infrastructure. At this point, we are more interested in seeing which players actually can actually meet our standards on a long term basis than we are at finding players (interviews and etc are great, but talk is cheap and I value results and effort).

I too wish you all the best in-game and IRL. I additionally hope that your experiences in your hardcore guild aren't too tainted by players that ignore the principles behind my advice.

And since you insist on having the last word that takes away from what I have said here, I'll just repeat what another poster said to reflect the values much of my advice targeted which was that hardcore players must remember not to be a dick.

There are a million sources on the meta, the strategies, and classes, but none of them will turn an asshole without social skills into a team player.

BLUF: most "social guilds" are filled with requests for carrie's vs people putting in the legwork and forming a group. After the 9th "c'mon, doesn't anyone want to do X,Y,Z for/with me, I have this quest..."

Whereas my hardcore vanilla guild was "I'm going to run UBRS, anyone need to come for gear? We have X,Y,Z filled."

The prime difference is taking charge with a goal of benefitting others WHILE doing something a person wants to do VS the incessant begging for someone to carry or form the group themselves to accomplish the same means. (Somewhat)

THAT, in and of myself wraps up my take on the social vs hardcore guild makeup. The first iteration would be tolerated a couple of times, even entertained and participated in if someone sacked up to form a group for that person. But if it happened to much, that person displayed a pattern of helplessness and was replaced with an eager applicant that displayed a desire to lead groups in their application and interview.

The toxicity is just a byproduct of focused and driven individuals in life. In any profession, hobby, or endeavor; not relegated to WoW in and of itself.

For all intents and purposes, your argument has been unfounded and a senseless attempt to fight the entire forum to no end. I award you no points, may Thrall have mercy on your soul.