killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

First you have no idea about how Paladin Abilities work , then you talk about Paladins as an Expert...

Yes, I am not an expert, therefore I go get quotes from those who do know instead of claiming something on my own.

It appears that Blessing of Protection does work like Limited Invulnerability from here however it is not preferred to use it as a Limited Invulnerability potion, but instead as a pseudo-taunt as seen in the quote below (of which Warriors have a real taunt and on a much shorter CD).

From BDevils:

Blessing of Protection is also a pseudo taunt. It wipes the aggro off the target temporarily until it ends so the mob will run back to you and, hopefully, you can regain aggro.

However as for Divine Shield it appears to be a complete threat wipe.

Mana Pots (2 min cd) + BoP (3 min cd with talents) vs Taunt(10 second cd)+Limited Invulnerability (2 min cd)

I believe it is clear that Warrior comes out the winner here without having to choose and with shorter CDs.



Please give verifiable quotes to match my own instead of attacking me and my expertise.


EDIT: I was writing this post when Psojed replied to me but I am leaving it up anyway.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Yeah sure, you have no idea who the Tank was for the content we cleared, regardless of the fact that i was Guild Leader in my own Guild and been Raid Leading , Guild Leading and Main Tanking!

The Guild was formed during Nostalrius period , which mean Nostalrius didn't have AQ released yet and yet you claim stuffs you have no fucking clue about .

PvP highlight videos only show what a player wants people to see - them winning - not ganks gone wrong.

Your videos are no different, and I fail to see what a video of you dueling outside IF is supposed to prove. Your video is blurry, there is no raid going on, and in the comments of the original Flurry Axe video you freely admit and link to AQ gear you are wearing.

Even if you were to claim you did ZG and AQ before MC, people in your raid are wearing Benediction. There is no progression raid.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Well the most upvoted comment on that Divine shield link says "Lets say you get feared, or stunned, just use Divine Shield, then immediately cancel the spell by right clicking it and resume aggro. Not bad." If they wiped aggro, he wouldn't be able to do that :)

I can confirm that both bubbles work the same way as the potion. They temporarily remove all your threat and threat comes back when the duration ends. So basically all Paladins have a 3-5min CD ability that functions as a Limited Invulnerability pot and can use it on anyone from the raid.
You can also use Divine Shield to kite mobs between tank and 2nd in threat for up to 12 seconds thanks to this

Though I am still doubtful (as the poster merely implies he retains rather that rebuilds aggro), I will amend it for you.

https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1020/divine-shield (5 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10278 ... protection (3 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13444/ ... ana-potion (2 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=5634/f ... ion-potion (2 min CD)
vs.
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=18499/berserker-rage (30 sec cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=355/taunt (10 sec cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=3387/l ... ity-potion (2 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=12962/iron-will (Passive 15% stun resist), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=5634/f ... ion-potion (2 min cd)


Free Action Potion will be popped situationally when called for and Divine Shield's ability to purge a stun would not be used except in 5 mans.

I am not certain if Paladin could use Free Action due to the mana pot requirement but I have thrown it in there for you.

It appears that Warrior comes out on top again regardless.

Also, it is not ideal to have mobs go between 1st and 2nd threat as often 2nd threat is a DPS and will likely die or be in very big trouble. Using Limited Invuln. is better than a dead tank, but ideally the tank is hit and no one else unless the fight specifically calls for it.

Tewi wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Why in each video is there three stacks of Judgement of Wisdom on the boss?


Not only that, but a host of inefficient debuffs. We can diagnose that the raid groups that Killerduki has ran with aren't exactly the brightest bunch. It's not difficult to hold aggro against people using suboptimal debuffs and assumedly rotations.

We already know that judgment stacking isn't going to be possible in classic, as on the beta it's not possible.

I'd also like to go back to another video of Duki's to point out some hypocrisy;


You say you're spamming max rank consecrate. You're doing this on mobs out in the open world, then taking 20+ seconds to run to the next mobs. Not only this, you're keeping up Judgment of Wisdom, Seal of Wisdom, not refreshing Seal of Wisdom for every judgment, not using judgment on cooldown as you would with Seal of the Righteous, not using Holy Shield as you would in a raiding environment. You also have a weapon buff active, which we can assume is mana oil given all the misdirection in the video.

The problem with Killerduki is he takes small facets of Prot Paladin tanking and shows them in a skewed vacuum in which he then touts to "prove" his point.

Paladins are perfectly VIABLE as tanks, but they are nowhere near optimal outside of some niche AoE scenarios where engineering would do the trick anyway. They are not, however, on the same level as Warrior or Druid tanks, otherwise we'd see a vastly higher number of people playing paladin successfully and tanking in a 40man raid progression environment.

Why in each video is there three stacks of Judgement of Wisdom on the boss?


Not only that, but a host of inefficient debuffs. We can diagnose that the raid groups that Killerduki has ran with aren't exactly the brightest bunch. It's not difficult to hold aggro against people using suboptimal debuffs and assumedly rotations.

We already know that judgment stacking isn't going to be possible in classic, as on the beta it's not possible.

Point out that finger on Nostalrius/Elysium/Lightshope , not to me, it was how servers had stuffs wrong scripted , does that mean i will suffer with mana if i use none of them or there are going to be any problems without multiple of them stacking?!



This Video is evidence of that, only Judgement of the Crusader there, no stacking , no wisdoms etc etc and still doing the same job easy and properly without Runes/Pots used or extra buffs used with exception of one Elixir which wont make any difference at all.

I'd also like to go back to another video of Duki's to point out some hypocrisy;


You say you're spamming max rank consecrate. You're doing this on mobs out in the open world, then taking 20+ seconds to run to the next mobs.

Yeah , i am taking 20+ seconds to run to the next mobs because there are no mobs in 1 spot or my health will go down if i use it on multiple mobs with more than 20 seconds, i am not in Raid Group where Healer is going to Heal me all the time and i am not attacking Elite which is going to increase the duration at the mob attacking it.

Not only this, you're keeping up Judgment of Wisdom, Seal of Wisdom, not refreshing Seal of Wisdom for every judgment,

And this is proof about you talking stuffs you have no clue about ,first of all Judgements are refreshed from Auto Attacks , not from Judging it all the time, so Judging wont make difference, all you need is to re seal after 30 seconds which is imo 0 changes from the mana , especially that you are going to regen much more mana than spending it by attacking the same target.

not using judgment on cooldown as you would with Seal of the Righteous, not using Holy Shield as you would in a raiding environment. You also have a weapon buff active, which we can assume is mana oil given all the misdirection in the video.

The whole discussion of Skarm was about 5 mans and AOE Parts where he said about "you can't spam max rank consecrate or you will have mana issues" .

What oil is been used doesn't matter at all , it is evidence that you can possibly spam Max Rank Consecrations without being OOM at all for infinite time.

Also in Raid environment against Single Target i am not going to use or less likely to use Consecrations for single target, it is highly inefficient and it does poor threat against Single Target , as for AOE part Seal/Judge of Wisdom as shown on Video is going to work perfectly.

For Raids this is how mana work for 7 minutes, what you clearly ignoring in this case :



If fight which last for 7 minutes doesn't make me OOM in Raid scenario , then your point has been wrong and the Video is just evidence of you being wrong.

No Multiple Judgements stacking to keep you informed and you can see that in the Video!

The problem with Killerduki is he takes small facets of Prot Paladin tanking and shows them in a skewed vacuum in which he then touts to "prove" his point.

It's not me who shows them in a skewed vacuum , it's you and overall Protection Paladin haters who demand and cherry pick all the time things , despite of what was already proven , you still are going to cherry pick more and more of it (abusing my poor english too in order to prove your point).

Paladins are perfectly VIABLE as tanks, but they are nowhere near optimal outside of some niche AoE scenarios where engineering would do the trick anyway.They are not, however, on the same level as Warrior or Druid tanks,

Engineering is not going to do more Threat than spamming Consecration Max Ranks , not even close to it for AoE


With Classic who is going to provide 14% parry haste , with Classic who is going to have Mobs and Bosses doing 3-4 times lower damage than Private Servers , with Classic who is not going to have Bugs which makes Warrior overpowered and Paladin underpowered , not only your Warrior and Druids are not going to be optimal , but they are going to be shit (with exception of Druids for threat abusing MCP farming the "legit and clever mechanic abuse").

Now imagine in Classic with 14% parry and Parry haste from Bosses = Warrior Shield Blocks are going to be swallowed immediately before next one appear and then you are going to be victim of Crushing Blows and perhaps Crits (if not def cap), while Paladin Holy shield have longer duration and you can always parry/dodge/miss in between so your Holy Shield wont be removed like your Shield Block.

Now imagine in Classic with Warriors taking lesser damage due to Mobs and Bosses hitting lesser than Pservers = Warrior Rage generation is going to be shit , which is going to make them loose very easy aggro and do extremely poor threat , while Paladin wont be affected by this.

Now imagine in Classic with Warriors not regenerating enough Rage due to lower damage output thanks to how Glancing Blows we all witness in Beta = poor aggro.

Now imagine in Classic where Warriors are not going to regenerate Rage from certain types of Debuffs and certain types of AoE unlike Pservers where they gain Rage from it = poor aggro.

otherwise we'd see a vastly higher number of people playing paladin successfully and tanking in a 40man raid progression environment.

Only because there is lack of info about Paladins , only because all the fearmongering spread around about Paladins , only because all "noobs Streamers" like Skarm pretend they are experts and telling people how Paladins are terrible , only because all "noobs website Guide Bloggers Tankadins" like Cystheen pretend they are experts and telling people Paladins can't tank without thousand of Consumes and only because Trolls like you Brainwashing everyone with lies and false info about Paladins and denigrate those like me who try to help Protection Paladin fans and community.

That's the reason why you can't see vastly higher number of people playing paladin successfully and tanking in a 40 man raid progression environment!

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Paladin comes second and Warrior comes first place, due to his inherent 10% overall damage reduction from def stance.

Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.

Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Tanking is about trying to focus all damage taken into a chosen person who can avoid or reduce a vast amount of the incoming damage.

Tanking is about threat first and mitigation second. A paladin sadly can't have one without sacrificing a huge portion of the other.

@Killerduki

Linking the video where you and your raid is MC/ZG/BWL/AQ geared taking on Magmadar is not going to prove anything at this point.

Likewise, in the 2nd video you linked just now you are not casting all your spells as https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20928/holy-shield is very obviously not going on CD.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Trolls like you

I see no evidence of trolling.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

lies and false info

Your claims of pre-raid BiS and progression raiding very untrue.

Linguine wrote: ↑

5 years ago

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Yeah sure, you have no idea who the Tank was for the content we cleared, regardless of the fact that i was Guild Leader in my own Guild and been Raid Leading , Guild Leading and Main Tanking!

The Guild was formed during Nostalrius period , which mean Nostalrius didn't have AQ released yet and yet you claim stuffs you have no fucking clue about .

PvP highlight videos only show what a player wants people to see - them winning - not ganks gone wrong.

Your videos are no different, and I fail to see what a video of you dueling outside IF is supposed to prove. Your video is blurry, there is no raid going on, and in the comments of the original Flurry Axe video you freely admit and link to AQ gear you are wearing.

Even if you were to claim you did ZG and AQ before MC, people in your raid are wearing Benediction. There is no progression raid.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Well the most upvoted comment on that Divine shield link says "Lets say you get feared, or stunned, just use Divine Shield, then immediately cancel the spell by right clicking it and resume aggro. Not bad." If they wiped aggro, he wouldn't be able to do that :)

I can confirm that both bubbles work the same way as the potion. They temporarily remove all your threat and threat comes back when the duration ends. So basically all Paladins have a 3-5min CD ability that functions as a Limited Invulnerability pot and can use it on anyone from the raid.
You can also use Divine Shield to kite mobs between tank and 2nd in threat for up to 12 seconds thanks to this

Though I am still doubtful (as the poster merely implies he retains rather that rebuilds aggro), I will amend it for you.

https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1020/divine-shield (5 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10278 ... protection (3 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13444/ ... ana-potion (2 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=5634/f ... ion-potion (2 min CD)
vs.
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=18499/berserker-rage (30 sec cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=355/taunt (10 sec cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=3387/l ... ity-potion (2 min cd), https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=12962/iron-will (Passive 15% stun resist), https://classic.wowhead.com/item=5634/f ... ion-potion (2 min cd)


Free Action Potion will be popped situationally when called for and Divine Shield's ability to purge a stun would not be used except in 5 mans.

I am not certain if Paladin could use Free Action due to the mana pot requirement but I have thrown it in there for you.

It appears that Warrior comes out on top again regardless.

Also, it is not ideal to have mobs go between 1st and 2nd threat as often 2nd threat is a DPS and will likely die or be in very big trouble. Using Limited Invuln. is better than a dead tank, but ideally the tank is hit and no one else unless the fight specifically calls for it.

PvP highlight videos only show what a player wants people to see - them winning - not ganks gone wrong.

Your videos are no different, and I fail to see what a video of you dueling outside IF is supposed to prove. Your video is blurry, there is no raid going on, and in the comments of the original Flurry Axe video you freely admit and link to AQ gear you are wearing.

Even if you were to claim you did ZG and AQ before MC, people in your raid are wearing Benediction. There is no progression raid.

You certainly wasn't there to know how my Guild did progress, but you are here only with Assumptions!

Even if you were to claim you did ZG and AQ before MC, people in your raid are wearing Benediction. There is no progression raid.

I didn't even claim that i did AQ20 before MC and we did AQ20 after MC , Benediction is only Evidence that was claimed from our Progression and it drop from this Boss :



Evidence that we were doing it during Progression too!

This is also how everyone was excited of our First Kills and when we were surprised of having Legendary items drop :



Read the Chat and hear other guys sound on Discord.

And you can see from my Channel how our Progression were moving forward along with Date Uploads with the Videos as evidence that we were moving as Progression step by step :

https://www.youtube.com/user/killerduki/videos

Also keep in mind Blizzard was clear with Official Blue Post : MC and ZG are going to be released at the same time , which is making even easier than what we could do on these Pservers where ZG wasn't released with MC!

Tewi wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Paladin comes second and Warrior comes first place, due to his inherent 10% overall damage reduction from def stance.

Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.

Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Tanking is about trying to focus all damage taken into a chosen person who can avoid or reduce a vast amount of the incoming damage.

Tanking is about threat first and mitigation second. A paladin sadly can't have one without sacrificing a huge portion of the other.

Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.

Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.

This is what makes you wrong.

Linguine wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Killerduki

Linking the video where you and your raid is MC/ZG/BWL/AQ geared taking on Magmadar is not going to prove anything at this point.

Likewise, in the 2nd video you linked just now you are not casting all your spells as https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20928/holy-shield is very obviously not going on CD.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Trolls like you

I see no evidence of trolling.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

lies and false info

Your claims of pre-raid BiS and progression raiding very untrue.

Linking the video where you and your raid is MC/ZG/BWL/AQ geared taking on Magmadar is not going to prove anything at this point.

Yet you provide 0 evidence of anyone using BWL and AQ40 Gear in the Video during Magmadar fight , but you claim something that doesn't exist and lying!

Why not MC/ZG Gear?! It is part of Gearing during Progression and that's it, but you spin over Magmadar which is easy boss ignoring all other 4 Bosses who was shown with Progression Pre Raid Gear and was main Tanked by me as Protection Paladin without using ZG or AQ20 Gear!

Likewise, in the 2nd video you linked just now you are not casting all your spells as Holy Shield is very obviously not going on CD.

I don't really have a need to cast all my spells ,i just swap Consecration with Holy Shield and that's it , Holy Shield is better choice for Raids than Consecration , but i could use them both either!



And this is evidence for that!

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

You certainly wasn't there to know how my Guild did progress, but you are here only with Assumptions!

I certainly was not there when your guild first cleared MC - if that even happened without already having gear from other raids. That's why the burden of proof is on you to prove it did not happen without being overgeared for the raid.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I didn't even claim that i did AQ20 before MC and we did AQ20 after MC , Benediction is only Evidence that was claimed from our Progression and it drop from this Boss :

There is a https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18608/benediction showing not even five seconds into the video and you appear to already have https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19913/ ... ed-greaves, not to mention that OT has his https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18348/quelserrar and... this is probably the exact same day you took the Magmadar video.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Evidence that we were doing it during Progression too!

This is also how everyone was excited of our First Kills and when we were surprised of having Legendary items drop :

Harder to see you in this post but the https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18348/quelserrar and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19864/bloodcaller are quite obvious at a glance. Likely same time period as other videos with just as much gear.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Also keep in mind Blizzard was clear with Official Blue Post : MC and ZG are going to be released at the same time , which is making even easier than what we could do on these Pservers where ZG wasn't released with MC!

Unless these are out of date, MC is Phase 1 and ZG is Phase 4. Hardly at the same time.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t ... lan/120346

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=850&hilit=everythin ... ar#content

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Yet you provide 0 evidence of anyone using BWL and AQ40 Gear in the Video during Magmadar fight , but you claim something that doesn't exist and lying!

Why not MC/ZG Gear?! It is part of Gearing during Progression and that's it, but you spin over Magmadar which is easy boss ignoring all other 4 Bosses who was shown with Progression Pre Raid Gear and was main Tanked by me as Protection Paladin without using ZG or AQ20 Gear!

You already have Thunderfury in the Magmadar Video, which means that you have all the gear below and more in your raid as time has passed and allowed you and your raid to collect even more gear.

Linguine wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Linguine wrote: ↑

5 years ago

There is clearly a Priest in the background of the flurry axe video wearing Benediction and this is not a Progression raid as that item's requisite quest item drops from a later boss. Even with a blurry video that obscures most of the gear, I can still see it.

Upon closer look there are at least two https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18608/benediction, a https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18348/quelserrar on one of the OT's (only requires ony, but still, the group isn't hurting for gear), and what appears to be https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19864/bloodcaller glowing green on a mage in the back.

And that's just the stuff that glows. With ZG gear equipped that means that BWL is out and they could have gear from there that I just can't see due to non-glow. They've certainly had ample time to clear a whole lot of MC and get a whole lot of drops.

But wait. There's more.

In the comments of the Flurry Axe Video someone asks Killerduki what his gear and spec is, and Killerduki links a video clip and says "This was the Gear used, only difference is that in Garr i didn't use or had Thunderfury , so i used Flurry Axe."



One of the Pieces is https://classic.wowhead.com/item=21479/ ... -immovable from AQ and his items have ZG enchants.

He did not link his shield but it appears to be https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard from Baron Kazum - Also not attainable.


Items he could not have for preraid:
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=21503/ ... and-reaver
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19888/ ... ds-embrace
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18406/ ... d-talisman
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19913/ ... ed-greaves
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=21479/ ... -immovable
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard
ZG Enchants + Any other enchants that weren't released yet


Things he could have had:
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=12620/ ... m#comments (Mouses too quick for me to get a solid look but likely has this item)
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=11927/ ... l-guardian
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13091/ ... hal-morris
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18754/ ... ed-bracers
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=10795/drakeclaw-band x2
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=11810/force-of-will
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=14552/ ... -pauldrons
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=14624/ ... chestplate
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=871/flurry-axe

Now also keep in mind that not only does he have AQ gear, but his Raid has AQ gear and everything in between.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Unlike me with Pre Raid Blue BiS

Debunked.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Tewi wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Paladin comes second and Warrior comes first place, due to his inherent 10% overall damage reduction from def stance.

Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.

Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Tanking is about trying to focus all damage taken into a chosen person who can avoid or reduce a vast amount of the incoming damage.

Tanking is about threat first and mitigation second. A paladin sadly can't have one without sacrificing a huge portion of the other.

Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.

Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.

This is what makes you wrong.

You posted a video showing PreBIS and Raid gear proving my point that Paladins use specifically off-tier gear [Tanking Plate off-spec pieces which are worse than Warrior Tier Gear] to say.... that my point is wrong?

You prove everybody right and then say they're wrong. Lmao.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Yeah , i am taking 20+ seconds to run to the next mobs because there are no mobs in 1 spot or my health will go down if i use it on multiple mobs with more than 20 seconds, i am not in Raid Group where Healer is going to Heal me all the time and i am not attacking Elite which is going to increase the duration at the mob attacking it.

You do realize I was pointing out that you're having 20+ seconds of mana regeneration between the mobs? Come on.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

And this is proof about you talking stuffs you have no clue about ,first of all Judgements are refreshed from Auto Attacks , not from Judging it all the time, so Judging wont make difference, all you need is to re seal after 30 seconds which is imo 0 changes from the mana , especially that you are going to regen much more mana than spending it by attacking the same target.

And in a raiding environment you will be using Judgment of the Righteous on cooldown and refreshing the seal after every judgment.
That is what I am pointing out.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The whole discussion of Skarm was about 5 mans and AOE Parts where he said about "you can't spam max rank consecrate or you will have mana issues" .

And you can't. Because you won't be using Judgment of Wisdom and Seal of Wisdom constantly. That won't be enough AoE threat to hold anything. You'll need to supplement with Holy Shield and tab targeting with judgment and seal of the righteous.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

What oil is been used doesn't matter at all , it is evidence that you can possibly spam Max Rank Consecrations without being OOM at all for infinite time.

Also in Raid environment against Single Target i am not going to use or less likely to use Consecrations for single target, it is highly inefficient and it does poor threat against Single Target , as for AOE part Seal/Judge of Wisdom as shown on Video is going to work perfectly.

The oil used does matter quite a lot seeing as it gives you MP5 as a stat and that is the subject matter. Not only that but again, the 20 seconds of regen between each mob. Using consecration twice on a mob and then regenerating it all before the next pull isn't evidence of being able to spam it.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

For Raids this is how mana work for 7 minutes, what you clearly ignoring in this case :



If fight which last for 7 minutes doesn't make me OOM in Raid scenario , then your point has been wrong and the Video is just evidence of you being wrong.

No Multiple Judgements stacking to keep you informed and you can see that in the Video!

Except that is not what you'd be doing in a raid scenario. Where is the constant usage of Holy Shield to maintain mitigation? A warrior has no issue using Shield Block on cooldown.

Juju flurry on cooldown to increase attack speed, therefore increasing mana regeneration from judgment of wisdom.

Not only that, you're also spamming mana pots and dark runes on cooldown to keep your mana up. Mana pots that could otherwise be used for mitigation from Stoneshield Potion, which a Paladin cannot do if he wants to keep threat up.

A warrior needs neither to maintain their resource, nor do they need a specific debuff on the boss to enable their gameplay.


I'd also like to break down this video in another way -

Why are you attacking a low level target dummy and covering it up with your "Protection Rules" banner? It's also not like 600TPS is good, especially with Thunderfury. Anybody who knows the Repack and how to setup a test server knows that particular dummy isn't the level 60 or 63 ??Boss level target dummy.
Just take a look at the complete lack of glancing blows.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

It's not me who shows them in a skewed vacuum , it's you and overall Protection Paladin haters who demand and cherry pick all the time things , despite of what was already proven , you still are going to cherry pick more and more of it (abusing my poor english too in order to prove your point).

Where did I abuse your poor english? Where did I cherrypick?

Here's how a debate works - Evidence is stripped apart and criticized where it needs to be criticized. It isn't my fault that your "evidence" has multiple holes and skewed misinformation to try to prove a point that's impossible to back up with any semblance of genuine testing and real-world examples.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Engineering is not going to do more Threat than spamming Consecration Max Ranks , not even close to it for AoE

Engineering gadgets are boosted by Defiance and Defensive Stance's base threat increase. As is demo shout, battle shout, thunderfury's proc, engineering shield's proc, thorns effects. Everything.

Protection Paladins only have consecrate and Holy shield being boosted by Righteous Fury. Aside from that, engineering gadgets do regular threat.

I'd say it's about equal. Paladins have it EASIER in terms of execution, but a warrior still has you beat due to overall higher levels of mitigation from the flat 10% damage reduction, kiting in the form of Piercing Howl when they do need it, and an unlimited resource.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

With Classic who is going to provide 14% parry haste , with Classic who is going to have Mobs and Bosses doing 3-4 times lower damage than Private Servers , with Classic who is not going to have Bugs which makes Warrior overpowered and Paladin underpowered , not only your Warrior and Druids are not going to be optimal , but they are going to be shit (with exception of Druids for threat abusing MCP farming the "legit and clever mechanic abuse").

I can assure you that the gap between Paladins and Druid/Warrior will still be pretty big within raiding and progression content. Warriors and druids are absolutely going to be optimal, as they always have been.
The damage is not 3-4 times lower. You looked at Esfand tanking on the beta at the level cap on there (With twinked and enchanted gear) compared to your supposedly "better" gear while you were levelling. Extremely misinforming and disingenuous like the majority of your "evidence."

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Now imagine in Classic with 14% parry and Parry haste from Bosses = Warrior Shield Blocks are going to be swallowed immediately before next one appear and then you are going to be victim of Crushing Blows and perhaps Crits (if not def cap), while Paladin Holy shield have longer duration and you can always parry/dodge/miss in between so your Holy Shield wont be removed like your Shield Block.

Parry haste can be up to 40%. Up to, depending on how long away the next bosses attack is. If anything there will be one attack that will go through, which again can be blocked, dodged, parried, or miss just as it will in your Holy Shield example. It's not as if warriors straight up lose all semblance of avoidance and mitigation the moment their shield block drops.

It's going to affect warrior threat for sure, as it will with druids. I'll concede that Paladins have two threat sources that bypass Parry - Holy Shield and Consecrate, which are a small portion of a Prot Paladin's threat.

Warriors will be fine.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Now imagine in Classic with Warriors taking lesser damage due to Mobs and Bosses hitting lesser than Pservers = Warrior Rage generation is going to be shit , which is going to make them loose very easy aggro and do extremely poor threat , while Paladin wont be affected by this.

Now imagine in Classic with Warriors not regenerating enough Rage due to lower damage output thanks to how Glancing Blows we all witness in Beta = poor aggro.

Now imagine in Classic where Warriors are not going to regenerate Rage from certain types of Debuffs and certain types of AoE unlike Pservers where they gain Rage from it = poor aggro.

You far overstate how much the rage difference will be. They will still have enough rage to spam sunder. Druids have hilariously few rage issues in raiding content due to maul costing 10 rage, or 7 with their idol.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Only because there is lack of info about Paladins , only because all the fearmongering spread around about Paladins , only because all "noobs Streamers" like Skarm pretend they are experts and telling people how Paladins are terrible , only because all "noobs website Guide Bloggers Tankadins" like Cystheen pretend they are experts and telling people Paladins can't tank without thousand of Consumes and only because Trolls like you Brainwashing everyone with lies and false info about Paladins and denigrate those like me who try to help Protection Paladin fans and community.

That's the reason why you can't see vastly higher number of people playing paladin successfully and tanking in a 40 man raid progression environment!

It has been 15 years. We've seen a lot of new developments with the advent of private servers for sure. I'll give you that.

However not one person has come forward with tangible [read; not you] and comprehensible evidence that Prot Paladins are optimal anywhere other than niche AoE situations?

Sure, Paladins can tank without consumables. But they fall short of Warriors and Druids, who can also use consumables to greatly increase the gap.

Paladins take more damage due to using offspec gear.
Paladins deal less damage due to being mana starved constantly.
Paladins deal less threat both due to mana and lacking spell damage on the only viable gear for tanking.

Every video you show is in guilds where debuffs are all over the place and you're allowed to get a massive threat lead, not to mention some of the videos of your threat tests showing multiple consumables and thunderfury on low level targets which proves nothing.

There's a reason you're a bit of a meme in the tanking community.

Linguine wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Though I am still doubtful (as the poster merely implies he retains rather that rebuilds aggro), I will amend it for you.

I'll try to see if I can see Divine shield in action in some retail vid. Probably not, but who knows :)

Linguine wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Free Action Potion will be popped situationally when called for and Divine Shield's ability to purge a stun would not be used except in 5 mans.

I am not certain if Paladin could use Free Action due to the mana pot requirement but I have thrown it in there for you.

It appears that Warrior comes out on top again regardless.

I'm sorry but I don't follow. What's the meaning for the listing of abilities, consumables and cooldowns? If it's a list of abilities that can counter stun, why'd you add berserker rage and taunt?

Linguine wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Also, it is not ideal to have mobs go between 1st and 2nd threat as often 2nd threat is a DPS and will likely die or be in very big trouble. Using Limited Invuln. is better than a dead tank, but ideally the tank is hit and no one else unless the fight specifically calls for it.

Yeah it isn't. The 2nd in threat would have to be ready to receive. It should preferably be an off-tank. But it's a nice gimmick I used in dungeons sometimes, with ranged party. Ran to max range from heal, pop divine, when mob is over halfway close to them, I remove DS early and mob comes back to me. Not really required as a tactic or smth.
The main advantage of using DS is that you get immune to all damage, so the next hit or two won't kill you and healers can top up. With Last Stand, there's still a possibility to be killed.

Tewi wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Paladin comes second and Warrior comes first place, due to his inherent 10% overall damage reduction from def stance.

Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.

Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.

Yeah we know that Pally uses off-tier gear. But how is using off-tier gear related to Tankadin's tanking capabilities?
AFAIK this is the first time I've talked about def cap in this whole thread. Feel free to read through it and check.
And I only stated that Paladins and Warriors are capable of reaching def cap, not that it is required to tank. Otherwise Druid wouldn't fit the bill, would he?

Tewi wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Tanking is about trying to focus all damage taken into a chosen person who can avoid or reduce a vast amount of the incoming damage.

Tanking is about threat first and mitigation second.

Umm.. That's exactly what I said?
"Tanking is about trying to focus all damage taken into a chosen person." As in, one person tanking, not multiple people tanking. That logically means keeping threat on the chosen person, the tank.
"person who can avoid or reduce a vast amount of the incoming damage." As in, the chosen person, the tank, should be able to mitigate damage. Can't exactly mitigate damage if the damage is taken by someone else, so again that logically means you mitigate damage after you keep threat.

Tewi wrote: ↑

5 years ago

A paladin sadly can't have one without sacrificing a huge portion of the other.

A paladin can easily do both. But feel free to prove it's otherwise.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I'm sorry but I don't follow. What's the meaning for the listing of abilities, consumables and cooldowns? If it's a list of abilities that can counter stun, why'd you add berserker rage and taunt?

I added them because one of the possible functions of Blessing of Protection is as a pseudo-taunt - so taunt comes into play that for a warrior their taunt and Invulnerability action are on separate cooldowns.

As for Berserker rage - your quote said a Pally could use Divine shield to counter a fear so I added in Beserker rage which is the Warrior's fear counter (also on a separate CD from invuln pot).

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Yeah it isn't. The 2nd in threat would have to be ready to receive. It should preferably be an off-tank. But it's a nice gimmick I used in dungeons sometimes, with ranged party. Ran to max range from heal, pop divine, when mob is over halfway close to them, I remove DS early and mob comes back to me. Not really required as a tactic or smth.
The main advantage of using DS is that you get immune to all damage, so the next hit or two won't kill you and healers can top up. With Last Stand, there's still a possibility to be killed.

I agree it is a nice tactic for dungeons. Reminds me of Hunter Distracting Shot + FD.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

A paladin can easily do both. But feel free to prove it's otherwise.

Due to the nature of "proving it otherwise" (showing a video of a Prot Pally wiping...? I mean, wouldn't you just say the raid or the pally was unskilled and that it doesn't prove anything? Just about anyone can wipe a raid), it would be better to have those in favor of proving it show a Prot Pally in a progression raid confidently clearing content.

Linguine wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I added them because one of the possible functions of Blessing of Protection is as a pseudo-taunt - so taunt comes into play that for a warrior their taunt and Invulnerability action are on separate cooldowns.

As for Berserker rage - your quote said a Pally could use Divine shield to counter a fear so I added in Beserker rage which is the Warrior's fear counter (also on a separate CD from invuln pot).

Oh I get it now, thanks.
I just copied the quote in regards to dropping/keeping aggro, not really thinking about the fear/stun comment part. I wasn't actually thinking about comparing DS to BR because BR makes you immune to it for like 10s, which is definitely better. But yeah, that could be an application for DS too.

Also I think I actually found a video proving that DS doesn't drop aggro. It's Timangi's R14 PvP movie. I didn't find it online on YT, so here's an archive link:
Dunno You should see a WEBM download option on the right side, so take that one and it'll download the movie. Nevermind, it actually embedded it here
At 4:44 starts a Silithus clip with an aggroed elemental on a horde hunter's pet. Timangi damages the elemental during the fight with Consecration (4:52), then he pops DS at 5:10. He doesn't damage the elemental in any way after using DS. When the horde hunter dies, the elemental goes after Timangi. If DS dropped all aggro, the elemental would "reset" and go to his spawn point right (or after the Rogue if he had aggro too)?

Linguine wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

A paladin can easily do both. But feel free to prove it's otherwise.

Due to the nature of "proving it otherwise" (showing a video of a Prot Pally wiping...? I mean, wouldn't you just say the raid or the pally was unskilled and that it doesn't prove anything? Just about anyone can wipe a raid), it would be better to show a Prot Pally in a progression raid confidently clearing content.

If Palatank really can't do both, then for example it will take a toll on the healers, who need to be using Mana pots and Innervates to be able to keep him alive.
From the other side - if the Palatank is able to mitigate damage well enough so that the healers are fine without consumables, then the Palatank should be constantly having runaway mobs because of not being able to produce enough threat.

I say Pala can really do both.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

At 4:44 starts a Silithus clip with an aggroed elemental on a horde hunter's pet. Timangi damages the elemental during the fight with Consecration (4:52), then he pops DS at 5:10. He doesn't damage the elemental in any way after using DS. When the horde hunter dies, the elemental goes after Timangi. If DS dropped all aggro, the elemental would "reset" and go to his spawn point right (or after the Rogue if he had aggro too)?

You're right that it is not a vanish effect and I completely forgot that mobs will continue to attack Paladins under DS if they are the only one with aggro. I wish the DS had come off before the hunter had died so we could see if it would remain on him or return to the Pally. It may not be something that removes you from combat, but I didn't think it kept the target priority of the mob once it came off. Could definitely be possible, it's just not certain yet.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

If Palatank really can't do both, then for example it will take a toll on the healers, who need to be using Mana pots and Innervates to be able to keep him alive.
From the other side - if the Palatank is able to mitigate damage well enough so that the healers are fine without consumables, then the Palatank should be constantly having runaway mobs because of not being able to produce enough threat.

I say Pala can really do both.

We just don't have any videos to address the matter. If it truly is possible then someone should tape their fresh first kills and post them. I am certain they would become quite famous for doing so as well. It's important that they're fresh first kills and progression raids without outside gear from the content to show that Prot Pallies do not require carrying.

And also, ideally, videos showing how far up they can go in raids without needing outside help or gear.

Yeah, the problem is people on that freshly started private realm probably won't have the gear to go raiding MC. Dunno if there's a dedicated tankadin. And any other realm out there would most likely include people with raid gear, so that's not good enough for you You'd have to make your own server with commands enabled and add the gear to players for a test run.

In the meanwhile, I stumbled upon this old discussion https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic. ... 0&start=30
The TLDR is that you would use Judgement of Light to produce threat. Apparently threat generation from Judgement of Light is half of the standard healing threat amount, and healing threat is half of the amount healed. So for every 1 point of healing from Judgement of Light, you get 0.25 threat. Overhealing doesn't count. Highest rank of JoLight gives a chance to heal for 61, so every proc would generate up to 15,25 threat.
The funny part is that this is a chance to trigger for every melee hit from anyone attacking the target. So any melee attacker from the whole raid, even hunter pets, would have a chance to create more threat for you with every hit. I can imagine this would be crazy TPS on Magmadar or Golemagg with those fire debuffs.

The above would only be relevant in raids where there is a huge level of AoE damage going out across the entire raid to consistently benefit from it. Oftentimes raid damage is rather quickly healed up so the amount of heal-threat you'd get from JoL is miniscule.

I wouldn't be so sure of that @Tewi. JoL is known for topping effective healing meters. And there's a bunch of bosses with aoe raid damage to melees. Shazzrah, Geddon, Sulfuron, Vael, drakes from BWL, Chromaggus, etc...
I guess that's another thing to try out when classic goes live.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Yeah, the problem is people on that freshly started private realm probably won't have the gear to go raiding MC. Dunno if there's a dedicated tankadin. And any other realm out there would most likely include people with raid gear, so that's not good enough for you You'd have to make your own server with commands enabled and add the gear to players for a test run.

I hear Blizzard is releasing a Fresh Server on August 27th.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I wouldn't be so sure of that @Tewi. JoL is known for topping effective healing meters. And there's a bunch of bosses with aoe raid damage to melees. Shazzrah, Geddon, Sulfuron, Vael, drakes from BWL, Chromaggus, etc...
I guess that's another thing to try out when classic goes live.

Does JoL attribute the threat to each individual player that hits it or is it to the caster of the Judgment?

I remember on some servers there were bugs that caused BoW to give threat to the Pally that cast it. If you tried to fight the Hunter Quest Demons they would despawn because it counted as someone helping you and you had to drop group after receiving the blessing to prevent the threat being attributed to the Paladin.

So if it gave threat on Nost all to the Pally it may have just been a bug. A good thing to double check once Classic gets released.

Apparently it attributed threat to the caster of the Judgement back in classic too. I think I read it somewhere on blizzard forums. But on Nost there was apparently a different bug - it generated threat from overheals.

Tewi wrote: ↑

5 years ago

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Tewi wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Paladin comes second and Warrior comes first place, due to his inherent 10% overall damage reduction from def stance.

Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.

Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Tanking is about trying to focus all damage taken into a chosen person who can avoid or reduce a vast amount of the incoming damage.

Tanking is about threat first and mitigation second. A paladin sadly can't have one without sacrificing a huge portion of the other.

Incorrect. Paladin uses off-tier gear which is few and far between. Druid is easily second place whilst Paladins are third. The gap is large between them, however.

Also you keep talking about def cap as if it's required for tanking. It isn't.

This is what makes you wrong.

You posted a video showing PreBIS and Raid gear proving my point that Paladins use specifically off-tier gear [Tanking Plate off-spec pieces which are worse than Warrior Tier Gear] to say.... that my point is wrong?

You prove everybody right and then say they're wrong. Lmao.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Yeah , i am taking 20+ seconds to run to the next mobs because there are no mobs in 1 spot or my health will go down if i use it on multiple mobs with more than 20 seconds, i am not in Raid Group where Healer is going to Heal me all the time and i am not attacking Elite which is going to increase the duration at the mob attacking it.

You do realize I was pointing out that you're having 20+ seconds of mana regeneration between the mobs? Come on.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

And this is proof about you talking stuffs you have no clue about ,first of all Judgements are refreshed from Auto Attacks , not from Judging it all the time, so Judging wont make difference, all you need is to re seal after 30 seconds which is imo 0 changes from the mana , especially that you are going to regen much more mana than spending it by attacking the same target.

And in a raiding environment you will be using Judgment of the Righteous on cooldown and refreshing the seal after every judgment.
That is what I am pointing out.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The whole discussion of Skarm was about 5 mans and AOE Parts where he said about "you can't spam max rank consecrate or you will have mana issues" .

And you can't. Because you won't be using Judgment of Wisdom and Seal of Wisdom constantly. That won't be enough AoE threat to hold anything. You'll need to supplement with Holy Shield and tab targeting with judgment and seal of the righteous.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

What oil is been used doesn't matter at all , it is evidence that you can possibly spam Max Rank Consecrations without being OOM at all for infinite time.

Also in Raid environment against Single Target i am not going to use or less likely to use Consecrations for single target, it is highly inefficient and it does poor threat against Single Target , as for AOE part Seal/Judge of Wisdom as shown on Video is going to work perfectly.

The oil used does matter quite a lot seeing as it gives you MP5 as a stat and that is the subject matter. Not only that but again, the 20 seconds of regen between each mob. Using consecration twice on a mob and then regenerating it all before the next pull isn't evidence of being able to spam it.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

For Raids this is how mana work for 7 minutes, what you clearly ignoring in this case :



If fight which last for 7 minutes doesn't make me OOM in Raid scenario , then your point has been wrong and the Video is just evidence of you being wrong.

No Multiple Judgements stacking to keep you informed and you can see that in the Video!

Except that is not what you'd be doing in a raid scenario. Where is the constant usage of Holy Shield to maintain mitigation? A warrior has no issue using Shield Block on cooldown.

Juju flurry on cooldown to increase attack speed, therefore increasing mana regeneration from judgment of wisdom.

Not only that, you're also spamming mana pots and dark runes on cooldown to keep your mana up. Mana pots that could otherwise be used for mitigation from Stoneshield Potion, which a Paladin cannot do if he wants to keep threat up.

A warrior needs neither to maintain their resource, nor do they need a specific debuff on the boss to enable their gameplay.


I'd also like to break down this video in another way -

Why are you attacking a low level target dummy and covering it up with your "Protection Rules" banner? It's also not like 600TPS is good, especially with Thunderfury. Anybody who knows the Repack and how to setup a test server knows that particular dummy isn't the level 60 or 63 ??Boss level target dummy.
Just take a look at the complete lack of glancing blows.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

It's not me who shows them in a skewed vacuum , it's you and overall Protection Paladin haters who demand and cherry pick all the time things , despite of what was already proven , you still are going to cherry pick more and more of it (abusing my poor english too in order to prove your point).

Where did I abuse your poor english? Where did I cherrypick?

Here's how a debate works - Evidence is stripped apart and criticized where it needs to be criticized. It isn't my fault that your "evidence" has multiple holes and skewed misinformation to try to prove a point that's impossible to back up with any semblance of genuine testing and real-world examples.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Engineering is not going to do more Threat than spamming Consecration Max Ranks , not even close to it for AoE

Engineering gadgets are boosted by Defiance and Defensive Stance's base threat increase. As is demo shout, battle shout, thunderfury's proc, engineering shield's proc, thorns effects. Everything.

Protection Paladins only have consecrate and Holy shield being boosted by Righteous Fury. Aside from that, engineering gadgets do regular threat.

I'd say it's about equal. Paladins have it EASIER in terms of execution, but a warrior still has you beat due to overall higher levels of mitigation from the flat 10% damage reduction, kiting in the form of Piercing Howl when they do need it, and an unlimited resource.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

With Classic who is going to provide 14% parry haste , with Classic who is going to have Mobs and Bosses doing 3-4 times lower damage than Private Servers , with Classic who is not going to have Bugs which makes Warrior overpowered and Paladin underpowered , not only your Warrior and Druids are not going to be optimal , but they are going to be shit (with exception of Druids for threat abusing MCP farming the "legit and clever mechanic abuse").

I can assure you that the gap between Paladins and Druid/Warrior will still be pretty big within raiding and progression content. Warriors and druids are absolutely going to be optimal, as they always have been.
The damage is not 3-4 times lower. You looked at Esfand tanking on the beta at the level cap on there (With twinked and enchanted gear) compared to your supposedly "better" gear while you were levelling. Extremely misinforming and disingenuous like the majority of your "evidence."

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Now imagine in Classic with 14% parry and Parry haste from Bosses = Warrior Shield Blocks are going to be swallowed immediately before next one appear and then you are going to be victim of Crushing Blows and perhaps Crits (if not def cap), while Paladin Holy shield have longer duration and you can always parry/dodge/miss in between so your Holy Shield wont be removed like your Shield Block.

Parry haste can be up to 40%. Up to, depending on how long away the next bosses attack is. If anything there will be one attack that will go through, which again can be blocked, dodged, parried, or miss just as it will in your Holy Shield example. It's not as if warriors straight up lose all semblance of avoidance and mitigation the moment their shield block drops.

It's going to affect warrior threat for sure, as it will with druids. I'll concede that Paladins have two threat sources that bypass Parry - Holy Shield and Consecrate, which are a small portion of a Prot Paladin's threat.

Warriors will be fine.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Now imagine in Classic with Warriors taking lesser damage due to Mobs and Bosses hitting lesser than Pservers = Warrior Rage generation is going to be shit , which is going to make them loose very easy aggro and do extremely poor threat , while Paladin wont be affected by this.

Now imagine in Classic with Warriors not regenerating enough Rage due to lower damage output thanks to how Glancing Blows we all witness in Beta = poor aggro.

Now imagine in Classic where Warriors are not going to regenerate Rage from certain types of Debuffs and certain types of AoE unlike Pservers where they gain Rage from it = poor aggro.

You far overstate how much the rage difference will be. They will still have enough rage to spam sunder. Druids have hilariously few rage issues in raiding content due to maul costing 10 rage, or 7 with their idol.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Only because there is lack of info about Paladins , only because all the fearmongering spread around about Paladins , only because all "noobs Streamers" like Skarm pretend they are experts and telling people how Paladins are terrible , only because all "noobs website Guide Bloggers Tankadins" like Cystheen pretend they are experts and telling people Paladins can't tank without thousand of Consumes and only because Trolls like you Brainwashing everyone with lies and false info about Paladins and denigrate those like me who try to help Protection Paladin fans and community.

That's the reason why you can't see vastly higher number of people playing paladin successfully and tanking in a 40 man raid progression environment!

It has been 15 years. We've seen a lot of new developments with the advent of private servers for sure. I'll give you that.

However not one person has come forward with tangible [read; not you] and comprehensible evidence that Prot Paladins are optimal anywhere other than niche AoE situations?

Sure, Paladins can tank without consumables. But they fall short of Warriors and Druids, who can also use consumables to greatly increase the gap.

Paladins take more damage due to using offspec gear.
Paladins deal less damage due to being mana starved constantly.
Paladins deal less threat both due to mana and lacking spell damage on the only viable gear for tanking.

Every video you show is in guilds where debuffs are all over the place and you're allowed to get a massive threat lead, not to mention some of the videos of your threat tests showing multiple consumables and thunderfury on low level targets which proves nothing.

There's a reason you're a bit of a meme in the tanking community.

You posted a video showing PreBIS and Raid gear proving my point that Paladins use specifically off-tier gear [Tanking Plate off-spec pieces which are worse than Warrior Tier Gear] to say.... that my point is wrong?

You prove everybody right and then say they're wrong. Lmao.

No , the Video did prove you wrong where you said :

Tanking is about threat first and mitigation second. A paladin sadly can't have one without sacrificing a huge portion of the other.

You do realize I was pointing out that you're having 20+ seconds of mana regeneration between the mobs? Come on.

And you do realize that during mob fighting my Mana was never going down thanks to regenerating it from Mob who i attacked ?! You don't obviously , even that there was spamming Consecration max ranks all the time , my mana was always filled before next Consecration is ready,



1st mob 0:18 - 0:36 = 3 Consecrations , before 2nd and 3rd Consecration was cast (on CD) the mana was already filled to maximum , this is what you try to miss manipulate in this discussion!

And in a raiding environment you will be using Judgment of the Righteous on cooldown and refreshing the seal after every judgment.
That is what I am pointing out.

For AoE Parts , no , i would never do that, why would i!? When it is extremely inefficient and poor AoE rotation , i'd rather use more Consecrations for whole Group than using Judges to the mobs!

For Single Target, AoE is not good to use , it's not best single target threat Ability and there is no point in using it that much other than if you got more than enough mana for joking with it for extra dps (which prot warriors wont match that dps) .

And you can't. Because you won't be using Judgment of Wisdom and Seal of Wisdom constantly. That won't be enough AoE threat to hold anything. You'll need to supplement with Holy Shield and tab targeting with judgment and seal of the righteous.

And i assume you are Skarm itself perhaps.

Certainly it is going to be 10 times higher threat to hold than a Warriors are going to do.

But the words you say to use Holy Shield and tab targeting with judgement and seal of righteousness clearly shows that you have no fucking clue what are you even talking about and how Protection Paladin work in AoE situation.

Damn it's so funny to even read Holy Shield and Tab targeting Judges of Righteousness and not using Seal/Judge of Wisdom to your Main Target during AoE situation ROFL , when a single Consecration for AoE is much bigger threat than Tab targeting and Holy Shields all together.

You act like you try for very first time Paladin but yeah i hope @psojed can laugh about this too :)

The oil used does matter quite a lot seeing as it gives you MP5 as a stat and that is the subject matter. Not only that but again, the 20 seconds of regen between each mob. Using consecration twice on a mob and then regenerating it all before the next pull isn't evidence of being able to spam it.

Then you ignore the part where my Mana was full before 2nd and 3rd Consecration was cast from Seal/Judge of Wisdom itself , while the Oil didn't made any difference there within those 16 seconds at all!

Still you cherry pick the part about "oh you used 3rd consecration and spent 10% of you mana which got regenerated between the pulls" .

Except that is not what you'd be doing in a raid scenario. Where is the constant usage of Holy Shield to maintain mitigation? A warrior has no issue using Shield Block on cooldown.

Sure but then in a raid scenario (against single target) we are replacing Holy Shield with Consecrations spams , so we use Consecration time to time but keeping Holy Shields and Judges on CD , because Consecration against single target is poor threat and not best option to use.

Juju flurry on cooldown to increase attack speed, therefore increasing mana regeneration from judgment of wisdom.

Yeah sure, few seconds attack speed , it can be replaced with Innervates , Power Infusions , Raid Buffs , World Buffs etc etc in a Raid environment , which is not even in the Video shown , but you know PI , Innervates , Raid Buffs, World Buffs = regardless of which one of them you have , it's still much bigger than Juju for Attack Speed, but also even Juju i can farm very easy in Raids in order to use it on CD during a Boss fight.

Not only that, you're also spamming mana pots and dark runes on cooldown to keep your mana up. Mana pots that could otherwise be used for mitigation from Stoneshield Potion, which a Paladin cannot do if he wants to keep threat up.

Then again , why would i spam all those stuffs in a Raid if i have much bigger aggro than the group , which mean i wont be having any need of Mana Pots or Runes.



No Runes, No Pots used. Which also bring your point down !

A warrior needs neither to maintain their resource, nor do they need a specific debuff on the boss to enable their gameplay.

Neither Paladin needs it as you have seen in the Video above ^ .

But let find out how "warriors don't need specific debuff on the boss to enable their gameplay", oh Sunder used (Debuff) , Deep Wounds (Debuff) . Great!



Especially that Warrior in this Video is using shit tons of Consumes at the very same Boss where i used only 1 elixir and no pots,no runes .

I'd also like to break down this video in another way -

Why are you attacking a low level target dummy and covering it up with your "Protection Rules" banner? It's also not like 600TPS is good, especially with Thunderfury. Anybody who knows the Repack and how to setup a test server knows that particular dummy isn't the level 60 or 63 ??Boss level target dummy.
Just take a look at the complete lack of glancing blows.

And that Warrior wont be affected by Glancing Blows?!

Let see how well you are informed about Holy Resistance and what you know about Glancing Blows , please enlighten us !

You know how much of White Swings reduced are going to change the same threat for Paladin?! Perhaps 5% of what you see, tell us now how much lower Rage Generation is going to be for a Warrior being affected by Glancing Blows and how much lower threat by White Swings is going to be thanks to Glancing Blows affected by Defiance and Def Stance?!

Now to debunk the very same Video :

646.7 TPS = 1k DPS handling and that's without :

1- Holy Shield
2- Retribution Aura
3- Blessing of Sanctuary
4- Sanctity Aura
5- All 3 Judgements at once
6- Exorcism
7- Parry Haste
8- Innervates
9- Power Infusion
10- Holy Mightstone
11- Holy Water
12- Crit Buff by group.
13- World Buffs (all of them)
14- Hunter Pet Buff
15- Blessing of Might
16- Blessing of King
17- Warrior Shouts


Did you know that with all of these (perhaps i missed some) , you can certainly improve threat 2-3 times higher than this threat on sitting target Dummy?!

Where did I abuse your poor english? Where did I cherrypick?

Well , you all the time cherrypick tiny stuffs , like "oh 20 seconds you spent between mobs" , "you wont be doing that rotation in raid" and more of the blah blah blah nonsense.

Like wth , why wouldn't i use what's best in my view, but i should use what was already proven as disaster your view?!

That's the cherrypicking stuffs you do!

Here's how a debate works - Evidence is stripped apart and criticized where it needs to be criticized. It isn't my fault that your "evidence" has multiple holes and skewed misinformation to try to prove a point that's impossible to back up with any semblance of genuine testing and real-world examples.

Let me tell you how debate work :

When you counter Evidence and criticize it , you also need to bring your own Evidence for your claims , it's not my fault that you bring no Evidence and then you cherry pick holes all the time in order to disapprove something which you can't even prove on your own!

The only skewed misinformation to try to prove a point that's impossible to back up with any semblance is what you are trying to do here, providing 0 evidence for your claims therefore you pin point and denigrating pure evidence given from someone.

Engineering gadgets are boosted by Defiance and Defensive Stance's base threat increase. As is demo shout, battle shout, thunderfury's proc, engineering shield's proc, thorns effects. Everything.

Maybe they are boosted, maybe not , i don't know, but from what i see , you are here to provide evidence that Engineering shield's procs , thorn effects are boosted by Defiance , would be happy if you do provide sources and evidence for such claim , otherwise you spill false information and manipulate.

Protection Paladins only have consecrate and Holy shield being boosted by Righteous Fury. Aside from that, engineering gadgets do regular threat.

I'd say it's about equal.

Retribution Aura,Holy Shield,Blessing of Sanctuary,Consecration not only being boosted by Righteous Fury , but also the extra 45% from your Engineering Bombs,Battle Shout and Thorns,Demo Shout wont be even half compare to how much threat Holy Spells are going to do.

Otherwise please prove us wrong with Video Evidence , the same thing Paladin vs Warrior doing and having Warrior doing equal to Paladin! Please do that and prove you claim before we even see you as serious manner.

Consecration itself is doing about 729 or more (depend on the spell damage) threat each 8 seconds , this exclude Spell Damage increasing it, exclude Sanctity Aura from Ret Paladin , this exclude Power Infusion etc. Which mean it does 91 TPS ,

while Thunderfury itself as Warrior :

formula to TF looks like this.


First get the threat per proc,

300 Nature damage, primary target -> Reduced by 10% in defensive stance, 270 base threat

Attack speed debuff, primary target -> ~90 base threat

NR debuff, all targets hit -> ~145 base threat


In total that's 505 base threat on the primary target per proc. Multiplied by defensive stance + defiance -> 505 * 1.3 * 1.15 = 754.975 threat per proc.


Now we need the proc chance, for now let's assume it is 25% (which was correct for 1.12 in retail).


Put that in our formula and we get,

754.975 x 0.25 x [(6 / 1.9) + 3] / 6 = 193.71 TPS

Which mean without defiance you are going to do 129 TPS

Congratulation you increased 64 Threat from Defiance and Def stance .

Now back to Dodge/Parry/Block you are going to have as Warrior and the Double Procs from SoR as Paladin.

SoR double proc Thunderfury is going to provide = 129x2 = 258 tps as Paladin > 193 tps as Warrior.

Now include the Retribution Aura,Blessing of Sanctuary,Holy Shield threat increased by Improved RF doing 90% more threat versus all the Engineering bombs and Thorns doing 45% for Warrior.

Especially that Holy Shield threat is not 90% more but 120% more Holy threat .

Paladins have it EASIER in terms of execution, but a warrior still has you beat due to overall higher levels of mitigation from the flat 10% damage reduction, kiting in the form of Piercing Howl when they do need it, and an unlimited resource.

Yeah sure, let us see Warrior doing this :



Or even this :

I can assure you that the gap between Paladins and Druid/Warrior will still be pretty big within raiding and progression content. Warriors and druids are absolutely going to be optimal, as they always have been.

To assure something ,you need to prove , right now you failed terrible with you proving something and you brought 0 proofs for that at all.

The damage is not 3-4 times lower. You looked at Esfand tanking on the beta at the level cap on there (With twinked and enchanted gear) compared to your supposedly "better" gear while you were levelling. Extremely misinforming and disingenuous like the majority of your "evidence."

And that's where i was waiting for you :



Footage from Beta Library Tanking at level 40 with poor Gear, mobs does 35-50 damage.



This is me Nostalrius/Elysium/Lighthope Tanking at level 40 with good Gear, mobs does 100-120 damage.

Nothing better than pure Evidence.

You far overstate how much the rage difference will be. They will still have enough rage to spam sunder. Druids have hilariously few rage issues in raiding content due to maul costing 10 rage, or 7 with their idol.

Yeah sure, and Sunder spamming itself is going to hold any aggro right?! Not only it's poor threat, but will vanish under Paladin Pattern.

It has been 15 years. We've seen a lot of new developments with the advent of private servers for sure. I'll give you that.

However not one person has come forward with tangible [read; not you] and comprehensible evidence that Prot Paladins are optimal anywhere other than niche AoE situations?

Only because of the huge denial for them to be accepted or learn how to play and work in Raids, only because they never been allowed to do , it's the reason why such evidence was never brought there, does that mean such skilled Paladins didn't exist?! They did , but was rare, wont change the fact that Paladin is optimal , no matter how big denial is by People who often are trapped within false info about them.

Sure, Paladins can tank without consumables. But they fall short of Warriors and Druids, who can also use consumables to greatly increase the gap.

Warrior and Druid wont increase or better themselves much from using Consumes and Raid Buffs, Paladins will , unlike Druids and Warriors , Paladins scales with EVERYTHING , Druids and Warriors wont scale from SP !

Paladins take more damage due to using offspec gear.

Offspec Gear is not making Paladin weaker at all ,the damage taken would be almost the same with Warriors having a niche 10% extra from Def stance and reason why he win that race, but Armor Reduction,Block Value and Avoidance define how much damage is taken , where 10% from Def Stance is not that huge difference,while Druids are in even worse position than a Paladin due to eating Crits and no Blocks!

Paladins deal less damage due to being mana starved constantly.

Damage and Aggro are 2 different things, Paladin in both Aggro and Damage situation is going to defeat Warrior and the Video Itself is evidence that there is no Mana Starving , while Warrior is going to starve with Rage if it increase his Defense Gear!



646.7 TPS = 1k DPS handling and that's without :

1- Holy Shield
2- Retribution Aura
3- Blessing of Sanctuary
4- Sanctity Aura
5- All 3 Judgements at once
6- Exorcism
7- Parry Haste
8- Innervates
9- Power Infusion
10- Holy Mightstone
11- Holy Water
12- Crit Buff by group.
13- World Buffs (all of them)
14- Hunter Pet Buff
15- Blessing of Might
16- Blessing of King
17- Warrior Shouts


Did you know that with all of these (perhaps i missed some) , you can certainly improve threat 2-3 times higher than this threat on sitting target Dummy?!

Paladins deal less threat both due to mana and lacking spell damage on the only viable gear for tanking.

That's not true , Judge of Wisdom and Runes and Pots fix Mana issue , Arcane Elixir , Wizard Oil , SP Enchant on Weap and SP Weap is going to fix Spell Damage without 0 risk of Defensive gear loosing , there are no good defensive weapons except Thunderfury , which mean threat weapon is always best option for Paladin and having Def Weapon for certain situation to do "Weapon Swaps during the fight" ..

Every video you show is in guilds where debuffs are all over the place and you're allowed to get a massive threat lead, not to mention some of the videos of your threat tests showing multiple consumables and thunderfury on low level targets which proves nothing.

Like we give a shit about Debuffs on target, if target is easy killed without proper Debuff rotation , it's also evidence Paladin did the job very easy even without optimizing them either!

Same as every Warrior Video show is using shit tons of Buffs , while on my Videos you see barely 1-2 Consumes used and low to no Pots/Runes used.


Like this Guy.

There's a reason you're a bit of a meme in the tanking community.

At least i am not the one who spill lies and false information like Skarm and Cystheen or other Trolls like you who denigrate and hate Paladins all the time .

Jeez Killerduki. No reason to be so offended. Eez homie

@killerduki

As you posted quite a few private server videos, especially the old 5 man videos without BIS gear do you know if that server you where playing on changed damage values of enemies? I watched that stratholme living run and was quite surprised at the incoming damage.

Bohemond wrote: ↑

5 years ago

killerduki

As you posted quite a few private server videos, especially the old 5 man videos without BIS gear do you know if that server you where playing on changed damage values of enemies? I watched that stratholme living run and was quite surprised at the incoming damage.

The server you see is Nostalrius , which latest raid videos were from period during Nostalrius Elysium merge , some of videos was from other Pservers (those who are not progression ones like scourge event and naxx) .

But the regular ones are from pre 1.9 and during 1.9 patch Nostalrius ones, which later become elysium and ended up today as lightshope where majority people play and base from their opinion.

Original Classic is not pserver, but as someone who has played original Vanilla and cleared all raids there, i assure you i know how things work and are indeed easier than all bugged pservers who you as protection paladin cant tank thanks to bugs and non working/wrong working boss mechanics.

Xaldron wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Jeez Killerduki. No reason to be so offended. Eez homie

Neither i care, nor i am offended at all.

Its how these debates are when you have to deal with those who willing to live in ignorance and therefore are here to spill false info , lies and throwing eggs and stones with unfair criticism.

Without them backing up their claims, therefore they request things that are nearly impossible , imposing cherry pick arguing debates.