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  •  Hipster spec working in raids


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Gensei
2 months ago
Toastea wrote:
2 months ago
Gensei wrote:
2 months ago
Toastea wrote:
2 months ago

It isnt a hard pitch at all, it just comes down to the raid leader and if they are stubborn really. I am so close to just going bear tank and becoming the best damn offtank on my server just to prove a point to be perfectly honest. The bear tank prejudice is down right criminal
To be fair, of all the hipster specs there can be, bear is probably the warmest received. Bear, shadow priest, and the token enhancement shaman have much less of a faux pas associated with them. Everything else...yeah. There's an even steeper hill of public opinion to climb. But at the same time, that opinion exists for a reason in most cases.

You make a very fair point. If you are a dedicated raider and actively try and find a home, you definitely will as a feral tank and from my postings it would seems I am being a bit dramatic. I think the reason it bothers me so much is because it represents the worst of vanilla. As we discussed I would argue taking a bear tank is optimal over another warrior. They have more utility, have the best threat generation in the game and bring higher DPS to the raid, and its one less plate tank you have to outfit. The downsides being they need more healing from your healers, you have a tank that downright cant main tank certain bosses due to mechanics and thats about it. It would just mean that your other tanks will have to be reliable and loyal to the guild.

But you will still get raid leaders that will refuse to take one and see them as a liability, because thats what they have been told and refuse to shake the notion that "only warriors can tank in raids"
Yeah. I think a couple things are going on here. I think warriors are still overall better tanks than bear druids. I think you're over-estimating how good they are. Of course, the bigger problem is not that but how much people think they're bad without having personal experience with it or just knowing better.

This is why I'm considering just trying to find a bunch of casual players to raid with. Not even thinking about how many times we raid a week, but just less nerds trying to hardcore raid Molten Core, the easiest fucking raid ever. I've played on a private server guild where the guild master demanded that everyone flask for MC. Yeah, flask up. So he was so confused when the warlocks started pulling aggro on trash. And then later confused why nobody in the guild had any gold. I didn't stick around.

I've gotten used to raiding in later expansions with a pretty relaxed group of people who try hard in raids and know what they're doing but don't take things more serious than it needs to be. Hell if that means rolling on an RP server and playing in a small, 20 man only guild, so be it.
Toastea
2 months ago
Gensei wrote:
2 months ago
Toastea wrote:
2 months ago

It isnt a hard pitch at all, it just comes down to the raid leader and if they are stubborn really. I am so close to just going bear tank and becoming the best damn offtank on my server just to prove a point to be perfectly honest. The bear tank prejudice is down right criminal
To be fair, of all the hipster specs there can be, bear is probably the warmest received. Bear, shadow priest, and the token enhancement shaman have much less of a faux pas associated with them. Everything else...yeah. There's an even steeper hill of public opinion to climb. But at the same time, that opinion exists for a reason in most cases.

You make a very fair point. If you are a dedicated raider and actively try and find a home, you definitely will as a feral tank and from my postings it would seems I am being a bit dramatic. I think the reason it bothers me so much is because it represents the worst of vanilla. As we discussed I would argue taking a bear tank is optimal over another warrior. They have more utility, have the best threat generation in the game and bring higher DPS to the raid, and its one less plate tank you have to outfit. The downsides being they need more healing from your healers, you have a tank that downright cant main tank certain bosses due to mechanics and thats about it. It would just mean that your other tanks will have to be reliable and loyal to the guild.

But you will still get raid leaders that will refuse to take one and see them as a liability, because thats what they have been told and refuse to shake the notion that "only warriors can tank in raids"
Gensei
2 months ago
Toastea wrote:
2 months ago

It isnt a hard pitch at all, it just comes down to the raid leader and if they are stubborn really. I am so close to just going bear tank and becoming the best damn offtank on my server just to prove a point to be perfectly honest. The bear tank prejudice is down right criminal
To be fair, of all the hipster specs there can be, bear is probably the warmest received. Bear, shadow priest, and the token enhancement shaman have much less of a faux pas associated with them. Everything else...yeah. There's an even steeper hill of public opinion to climb. But at the same time, that opinion exists for a reason in most cases.
Toastea
2 months ago
Gensei wrote:
2 months ago
Toastea wrote:
2 months ago
Gacow wrote:
2 months ago
Gensei wrote:
3 months ago
Toastea wrote:
3 months ago
My vote would have to g to bear tank. For all the cheers the warriors get, bears can tank a surprising amount of things even main tanking raids. Of course it has its limitations, but bears have been proven already to tank raids and what you cant main tank you can definitely off tank. Its something I tempted to do myself
I've played bear tank the last time I took a deep dive on a vanilla server and leveling and tanking 5 mans before and at 60 is super fun. You'll like it.
Wanna try bear tanking in raids too ?
Bear tanks are not just acceptable for raids, I would say taking a bear tank is optimal. If you want to do it, do it. The hardest part of bar tanking is trying to explain to stubborn raid leaders that you are actually an asset and not a liability. One bear tank is more helpful to the raid than another Warrior
But that doesn't seem that hard a pitch to make. First off, I can't imagine most guilds will run as strict on comp as a lot of private server guilds. But then I think it's an easy case to make that a bear druid off tank works better than a 4th warrior. Extra combat rez, crit buff, another innervate. Does more damage when not tanking than a prot warrior who pulls out a 2her. And you don't have to spread tank gear out among 4 warriors, just 3. I dunno. Seems like an easy argument to win.

It isnt a hard pitch at all, it just comes down to the raid leader and if they are stubborn really. I am so close to just going bear tank and becoming the best damn offtank on my server just to prove a point to be perfectly honest. The bear tank prejudice is down right criminal
Gensei
2 months ago
Toastea wrote:
2 months ago
Gacow wrote:
2 months ago
Gensei wrote:
3 months ago
Toastea wrote:
3 months ago
My vote would have to g to bear tank. For all the cheers the warriors get, bears can tank a surprising amount of things even main tanking raids. Of course it has its limitations, but bears have been proven already to tank raids and what you cant main tank you can definitely off tank. Its something I tempted to do myself
I've played bear tank the last time I took a deep dive on a vanilla server and leveling and tanking 5 mans before and at 60 is super fun. You'll like it.
Wanna try bear tanking in raids too ?
Bear tanks are not just acceptable for raids, I would say taking a bear tank is optimal. If you want to do it, do it. The hardest part of bar tanking is trying to explain to stubborn raid leaders that you are actually an asset and not a liability. One bear tank is more helpful to the raid than another Warrior
But that doesn't seem that hard a pitch to make. First off, I can't imagine most guilds will run as strict on comp as a lot of private server guilds. But then I think it's an easy case to make that a bear druid off tank works better than a 4th warrior. Extra combat rez, crit buff, another innervate. Does more damage when not tanking than a prot warrior who pulls out a 2her. And you don't have to spread tank gear out among 4 warriors, just 3. I dunno. Seems like an easy argument to win.
Gensei
2 months ago
Gacow wrote:
2 months ago
Gensei wrote:
3 months ago
Toastea wrote:
3 months ago
My vote would have to g to bear tank. For all the cheers the warriors get, bears can tank a surprising amount of things even main tanking raids. Of course it has its limitations, but bears have been proven already to tank raids and what you cant main tank you can definitely off tank. Its something I tempted to do myself
I've played bear tank the last time I took a deep dive on a vanilla server and leveling and tanking 5 mans before and at 60 is super fun. You'll like it.
Wanna try bear tanking in raids too ?
I mean I had to quit before I could raid b/c IRL, but yeah I'd want to. He makes a great off tank because once his tank assignment in MC, for instance, is dead, he can dps or heal or whatever. Plus the crit buff is always great.
Toastea
2 months ago
Gacow wrote:
2 months ago
Gensei wrote:
3 months ago
Toastea wrote:
3 months ago
My vote would have to g to bear tank. For all the cheers the warriors get, bears can tank a surprising amount of things even main tanking raids. Of course it has its limitations, but bears have been proven already to tank raids and what you cant main tank you can definitely off tank. Its something I tempted to do myself
I've played bear tank the last time I took a deep dive on a vanilla server and leveling and tanking 5 mans before and at 60 is super fun. You'll like it.
Wanna try bear tanking in raids too ?
Bear tanks are not just acceptable for raids, I would say taking a bear tank is optimal. If you want to do it, do it. The hardest part of bar tanking is trying to explain to stubborn raid leaders that you are actually an asset and not a liability. One bear tank is more helpful to the raid than another Warrior
Gacow
2 months ago
Gensei wrote:
3 months ago
Toastea wrote:
3 months ago
My vote would have to g to bear tank. For all the cheers the warriors get, bears can tank a surprising amount of things even main tanking raids. Of course it has its limitations, but bears have been proven already to tank raids and what you cant main tank you can definitely off tank. Its something I tempted to do myself
I've played bear tank the last time I took a deep dive on a vanilla server and leveling and tanking 5 mans before and at 60 is super fun. You'll like it.
Wanna try bear tanking in raids too ?
Selexin
2 months ago
Gensei wrote:
2 months ago
teebling wrote:
2 months ago
Nymis wrote:
2 months ago
Yall high on some dope Tauren pipe if you think..
:lol: :lol: that dank Mulgore grass
Catch me dealing in Thunder Puff.
We call it.... chewin' the cud.
Gensei
2 months ago
teebling wrote:
2 months ago
Nymis wrote:
2 months ago
Yall high on some dope Tauren pipe if you think..
:lol: :lol: that dank Mulgore grass
Catch me dealing in Thunder Puff.
Gensei
2 months ago
Dolamite wrote:
2 months ago
I healed as Shadow because I was too cheap to respec until Geddon. Dont let people tell you how to play
At the end of the day, gear generally matters more than spec in Vanilla. So you can both get away with elemental or shadow or whatever by healing well in a raid and having good healing gear, but more to the point you can also provide your raid with a lot of utility. Don't let people tell you how to play, but also be willing to pitch in and show effort and people won't care how you spec.

Additionaly, people who want build a guild to raid MC have zero reason to be spec nazis. You can beat MC with half your raid being suboptimal specs. It's the easiest raid in the game. Hell, people cleared MC back in the day when they had zero clue how to play the game or what was optimal, let alone how to get the most out of the weaker specs, which many people who decide to play with a suboptimal spec nowadays are typically quite aware of.
Faendor
2 months ago
If your goal as guild is not to maximize everyones performance, then you dont have to care about it. Just wring as much from it as you can.
Toastea
2 months ago
The thing people have to remember when it comes to the brokens specs is, its not that the builds are not capable of damage or that they cant hit the damage you need. Most of the issues come from running out of mana mid or late fight and being useless until after that needing unfeasible about of mana pots, or not being able to pot fast enough due to cooldowns.

Boomkin is the prime example here. Balance druid damage is perfectly fine and able to raid. The issue comes from the fact you can not sustain that damage. Arcane mage is much the same, though with more mana, just not enough or sufficient enough damage to mana spells.
teebling
2 months ago
Nymis wrote:
2 months ago
Yall high on some dope Tauren pipe if you think..
:lol: :lol: that dank Mulgore grass
Nymis
2 months ago
Yall high on some dope Tauren pipe if you think Warlocks are going to do enough damage in P1 to make it worth having a SP over another mage.
Dolamite
2 months ago
I healed as Shadow because I was too cheap to respec until Geddon. Dont let people tell you how to play
Gensei
2 months ago
Selexin wrote:
2 months ago
Gensei wrote:
2 months ago
Selexin wrote:
2 months ago
Kurzogg wrote:
2 months ago
I would love to talk to you about what spec you're planning to run.
I'll shoot you a PM.
See above. I know the talents look super sexy but it's not enough :(
Have you played as Ele at 60? Would love to get some feedback on things like downranking, and gearing int/mp5 etc. Looks like a good spec for PVP Burst, and semi-viable for 5 mans etc. but I don't have experience at 60 to back it up, only guides and videos.
I've played some. In PvP it's a great spec. It's just not good in PvE. I'm not reliable enough for a complete guide, but you would prioritize Mp5 and +hit more than anything else. You have a small mana pool and no talents to help with regen beyond clearcasting. It's fine for 5 man content. Maybe okay for ZG/AQ20, but again, you're the only damage type that doesn't benefit from either Curse (well, alongside Holy). You would just need a lot of consumables just to compare to a mage without any consumables, in both damage and mana management. And a guild willing to take you. I've tried to make it work. It's rough. At the end of the day, if you want to go for it, you just have to rock it. Bring lots of consumables and be willing to heal on the fights where you're needed.

But like I said in the other post, if we know for sure that BC is what comes after, then I'd totally go Shaman with the intent to play elemental in BC content once the talents change over. But we don't know what comes after Naxx yet.
Selexin
2 months ago
Gensei wrote:
2 months ago
Selexin wrote:
2 months ago
Kurzogg wrote:
2 months ago
I would love to talk to you about what spec you're planning to run.
I'll shoot you a PM.
See above. I know the talents look super sexy but it's not enough :(
Have you played as Ele at 60? Would love to get some feedback on things like downranking, and gearing int/mp5 etc. Looks like a good spec for PVP Burst, and semi-viable for 5 mans etc. but I don't have experience at 60 to back it up, only guides and videos.
Gensei
2 months ago
Selexin wrote:
2 months ago
Kurzogg wrote:
2 months ago
I would love to talk to you about what spec you're planning to run.
I'll shoot you a PM.
See above. I know the talents look super sexy but it's not enough :(
Gensei
2 months ago
Kurzogg wrote:
2 months ago
Selexin wrote:
3 months ago
Ele Shaman is something I have seriously considered maining and trying to raid with. The talents add +11% crit +3% hit and 1 sec reduced cast time on lightning spells, 100% crit damage multiplier. Can heal quite effectively too, even in the caster gear. The main problem? The gear. To raid effectively, you will likely be wearing mostly cloth, and the tier gear isn't suited. Yuck!

This is something that I am still considering. I love druids and I'm 99% sure I will main one, but the Ele Shaman is the only other thing drawing me in...
I would love to talk to you about what spec you're planning to run. I've never even leveled a shaman past 30 but I was noodling around on the wowhead talent calculators and I thought I got a pretty neat talent spec for elemental shamans. How does this look? https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-calc ... AHQAAzTxDA

I plan on playing a warlock but the idea of throwing lightning bolts has me intrigued.
So I was saying this on the other thread. I'd play Ele shaman in vanilla but they're just too bad. Their max rank Lightning Bolt spell is still way weaker than the max rank Fireball/Frostbolt/Shadow Bolt, and then all three of those spells gain an additional rank from the tomes in Ahn'Qiraj and LB does not. Shamans also don't have any mana regen beyond Clearcasting, and they have a super small mana pool. Also, they don't benefit from Curse of Elements (I know, right?) and, even if they did do great damage, have no aggro reduction talents.

The time for ele shaman comes in BC. I'd roll shaman for sure and heal for vanilla if I knew that BC was what will follow after. But without Totem of Wrath or Bloodlust that both come in BC, they offer no extra utility over a resto shaman to a raid. In BC they get mana regen talents and more damage talents. I still might try and play one, but I'm super worried it's just gonna be a flop.
Gensei
2 months ago
Linguine wrote:
2 months ago
Gensei wrote:
2 months ago
Linguine wrote:
3 months ago
On the topic of Shadow Priest, things to consider:
  • You need warlocks to be a dps enhancer. Not enough warlocks = you are not seen as valuable.
  • Not that many warlocks around historically on Alliance PvP.
  • More warlocks on Horde PvP, but more Shadow Priests too. Dangit.
  • PvE servers I have no idea.
Actually, in some polling data taken from the classic wow subreddit, there was no disparity in the number of warlocks between PvP and PvE servers. The only big changes going from PvP to PvE was a big drop in rogues and a big influx of priests. But there wasn't data from this specific survey how the factions cut on PvP vs. PvE

Additionally, it'd be huge if we knew what Blizzard was planning on post-Naxx, because whether there'd be more vanilla content or burning crusade would influence me on my class choice. All these hipster specs become way better in BC (to the point that they're not hipster anymore), and even some specs that are too bad even for the hipsters in vanilla are solid, like I'd 100% play elemental shaman in BC but I wouldn't even play it in vanilla as a hipster. Woof.

Though, tbh, I'm not even brave enough to play full arcane mage. It's cool b/c talents give you +10 hit (!) so you can stack + damage and not worry about hit gear as much, but arcane missiles doesn't crit at all.

If the experience I had on private servers is anything to consider, the faction slice for PvP warlocks is huge.

For the current big name private servers it's hard to see the slice because they essentially encompass both PvP and PvE players, but in my own experience warlocks were a scarcity on the Alliance side in Warsong despite having enough warlocks in our raids. Once those PvE warlocks get sifted out and instead the PvP warlocks are being relied on I have a feel that extreme poaching will begin.
I don't think poaching will be that big a deal tbh. Maybe that's just me, but I dunno.
Selexin
2 months ago
Kurzogg wrote:
2 months ago
I would love to talk to you about what spec you're planning to run.
I'll shoot you a PM.
Kurzogg
2 months ago
Selexin wrote:
3 months ago
Ele Shaman is something I have seriously considered maining and trying to raid with. The talents add +11% crit +3% hit and 1 sec reduced cast time on lightning spells, 100% crit damage multiplier. Can heal quite effectively too, even in the caster gear. The main problem? The gear. To raid effectively, you will likely be wearing mostly cloth, and the tier gear isn't suited. Yuck!

This is something that I am still considering. I love druids and I'm 99% sure I will main one, but the Ele Shaman is the only other thing drawing me in...
I would love to talk to you about what spec you're planning to run. I've never even leveled a shaman past 30 but I was noodling around on the wowhead talent calculators and I thought I got a pretty neat talent spec for elemental shamans. How does this look? https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-calc ... AHQAAzTxDA

I plan on playing a warlock but the idea of throwing lightning bolts has me intrigued.
Linguine
2 months ago
Gensei wrote:
2 months ago
Linguine wrote:
3 months ago
On the topic of Shadow Priest, things to consider:
  • You need warlocks to be a dps enhancer. Not enough warlocks = you are not seen as valuable.
  • Not that many warlocks around historically on Alliance PvP.
  • More warlocks on Horde PvP, but more Shadow Priests too. Dangit.
  • PvE servers I have no idea.
Actually, in some polling data taken from the classic wow subreddit, there was no disparity in the number of warlocks between PvP and PvE servers. The only big changes going from PvP to PvE was a big drop in rogues and a big influx of priests. But there wasn't data from this specific survey how the factions cut on PvP vs. PvE

Additionally, it'd be huge if we knew what Blizzard was planning on post-Naxx, because whether there'd be more vanilla content or burning crusade would influence me on my class choice. All these hipster specs become way better in BC (to the point that they're not hipster anymore), and even some specs that are too bad even for the hipsters in vanilla are solid, like I'd 100% play elemental shaman in BC but I wouldn't even play it in vanilla as a hipster. Woof.

Though, tbh, I'm not even brave enough to play full arcane mage. It's cool b/c talents give you +10 hit (!) so you can stack + damage and not worry about hit gear as much, but arcane missiles doesn't crit at all.

If the experience I had on private servers is anything to consider, the faction slice for PvP warlocks is huge.

For the current big name private servers it's hard to see the slice because they essentially encompass both PvP and PvE players, but in my own experience warlocks were a scarcity on the Alliance side in Warsong despite having enough warlocks in our raids. Once those PvE warlocks get sifted out and instead the PvP warlocks are being relied on I have a feel that extreme poaching will begin.
Gensei
2 months ago
Linguine wrote:
3 months ago
On the topic of Shadow Priest, things to consider:
  • You need warlocks to be a dps enhancer. Not enough warlocks = you are not seen as valuable.
  • Not that many warlocks around historically on Alliance PvP.
  • More warlocks on Horde PvP, but more Shadow Priests too. Dangit.
  • PvE servers I have no idea.
Actually, in some polling data taken from the classic wow subreddit, there was no disparity in the number of warlocks between PvP and PvE servers. The only big changes going from PvP to PvE was a big drop in rogues and a big influx of priests. But there wasn't data from this specific survey how the factions cut on PvP vs. PvE

Additionally, it'd be huge if we knew what Blizzard was planning on post-Naxx, because whether there'd be more vanilla content or burning crusade would influence me on my class choice. All these hipster specs become way better in BC (to the point that they're not hipster anymore), and even some specs that are too bad even for the hipsters in vanilla are solid, like I'd 100% play elemental shaman in BC but I wouldn't even play it in vanilla as a hipster. Woof.

Though, tbh, I'm not even brave enough to play full arcane mage. It's cool b/c talents give you +10 hit (!) so you can stack + damage and not worry about hit gear as much, but arcane missiles doesn't crit at all.