Ashenvale
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6 months ago (Beta)
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Hey everyone, the last time I played Classic was back in 2006, I stayed out of private servers and the whole vanilla community in general until about a week or so ago when I figured I have some catching up to do with Classic being so close. I mained a Paladin from Vanilla to Cata and then Rogue until Legion when I rerolled to a Demon Hunter and have been, for most of the time since Cataclysm atleast, trying to be somewhat competitive in the raiding environment in terms of DPS and just Mythic raiding in general with my group of friends, which has now led to a slight problem with Classic regarding my Class/Race choice which has kinda been driving me crazy ever since I started digging into it, so here I am seeking advice.

Ever since the Classic announcement, I've been pretty much set on playing a Night Elf Rogue in Classic, I remembered racials being a big deal back then but still decided to just go with my preferences over anything else because I was convincing myself that I don't need to be competitive in Classic and to just chill and enjoy my time even if it meant doing slightly less dps than a Human Rogue, however upon doing further research I've been finding more and more conflicting points regarding how much DPS difference it actually is and I'm so completely lost when it comes to Classic theorycrafting that I don't know who or what to believe, some say its 1-3% difference while some are on the completely opposite end and say its upwards of 15% difference, not to mention that there's not a lot I could find on how this is all affected by the different hit cap on Classic compared to Private Servers. Even if I put the raw dps difference aside, the next thing that worries me is the build/weapon choice, I'm not a fan of the original Dagger build playstyle as I really hate the positional requirements of Backstab and I'd much rather stick with the traditional Swords build, but from what I've been reading, I'd be stuck with dagger build as a Nelf which would probably ruin my enjoyment of the game more so than the Human model would.

My question would be, if I stick with my decision to play Nelf Rogue, how screwed am I based on what I said in the post? Is there really no way for me to compete with Human Rogues, and if so, would I be getting destroyed by the said human rogues while simultaneously playing a build I don't enjoy? If someone here knows the exact values of Human Rogue vs Nelf Rogue with identical bis gear, aswell as Sword Nelf Rogue vs Dagger Nelf Rogue, those would be amazing. Thanks in advance :D

Blasted Lands
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6 months ago (Beta)
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It will be hard to compete as a min maxer with humans unless you use dagger. With daggers Nelf is probably one of the better options and opens up for PvP as well due to them having the highest DPS output with daggers, due to the high base agility, it's not huge but it's there.

Glancing blows occur at about 20% of the time versus mobs that are above your level. These attacks only do 75% of their normal damage versus a mob that is 3 levels above you. Bosses are counted as "your level+3"

300 -> 35% reduction
305 -> 15% reduction
310 -> 5% reduction
315 -> 0% reduction
Now in addition you have weapon skill which is said to increase
Your chance to miss decreases by 0.04%.
Your chance to score a critical hit increases by 0.04%.
Your opponent's chance to block your attack decreases by 0.04%.
Your opponent's chance to parry your attack decreases by 0.04%.
Your opponent's chance to dodge your attack decreases by 0.04%.
per weapon skill so from what I gather you get around ~15% base increase in damage on glancing blows, plus a 1% reduction in chance to be dodged/blocked/parried by the mob with the sword spec bonus.

This damage above won't make or break you or your raid, but Humans clearly have a favor over the others and is recommended for end game raiding due to it, in the end it depends on your enjoyment. If you get more enjoyment from playing a Nelf, then yes, do so, but keep in mind min maxer hardcore guilds might not approve if they have a night elf vs a human to get into a raid.

Daggers however, are viable and somewhat competitive with swords a bit into the phases around T2 I think.

   teebling Adoxe
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Burning Steppes
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6 months ago (Beta)
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The difference is far less noticable on rogue than on warrior. If you're rolling combat swords, you get 5 sword skill from talents, so humans hit the soft +8 weapon skill cap more easily, but the difference between 305 and 308 isn't game breaking.

If you manage to grab Maladath in BWL for your offhand, then you're golden.

However, depending on how hardcore of a guild you plan to run with, they may give sword priority to humans, and expect non human rogues to go daggers.

   Pluuf Adoxe Holyfrog
Ashenvale
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6 months ago (Beta)
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Thank you both for the replies, really appreciate it!

I won't be going for hardcore rankings or server first/world first kills, just gonna be clearing the content when it's current at an average pace with a group of friends that I'll be playing with, I'd still like to be topping the dps meters just for personal satisfaction if anything but I think I can put that aside as the game as a whole will be satisfying. If I understood your replies correctly, the difference between the two is even lower on retail with the cap change than it was on private servers and I can still play Swords build as a NElf without worrying too much about being a burden on my group. If that's the case then I think I'll be sticking with my decision and play Nelf and see how it goes.

Paladin Protection
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6 months ago (Beta)
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Tec wrote:
6 months ago
It will be hard to compete as a min maxer with humans unless you use dagger. With daggers Nelf is probably one of the better options and opens up for PvP as well due to them having the highest DPS output with daggers, due to the high base agility, it's not huge but it's there.

Glancing blows occur at about 20% of the time versus mobs that are above your level. These attacks only do 75% of their normal damage versus a mob that is 3 levels above you. Bosses are counted as "your level+3"
300 -> 35% reduction
305 -> 15% reduction
310 -> 5% reduction
315 -> 0% reduction
Now in addition you have weapon skill which is said to increase
Your chance to miss decreases by 0.04%.
Your chance to score a critical hit increases by 0.04%.
Your opponent's chance to block your attack decreases by 0.04%.
Your opponent's chance to parry your attack decreases by 0.04%.
Your opponent's chance to dodge your attack decreases by 0.04%.
per weapon skill so from what I gather you get around ~15% base increase in damage on glancing blows, plus a 1% reduction in chance to be dodged/blocked/parried by the mob with the sword spec bonus.

This damage above won't make or break you or your raid, but Humans clearly have a favor over the others and is recommended for end game raiding due to it, in the end it depends on your enjoyment. If you get more enjoyment from playing a Nelf, then yes, do so, but keep in mind min maxer hardcore guilds might not approve if they have a night elf vs a human to get into a raid.

Daggers however, are viable and somewhat competitive with swords a bit into the phases around T2 I think.
Appreciate the effort, but this is incorrect. The glancing cap in Classic is 308 weapon skill. The 0.04% value is also exclusively against players, not mobs in PvE which use a different formula.

I advice listening to @Zanthir instead.
Adoxe wrote:
6 months ago
the difference between the two is even lower on retail with the cap change than it was on private servers
The difference weapon skill makes is actually larger in Classic than private servers due to how it interacts with your chance to hit to a much greater extent, instead of just glancing blows.

Here's the formulas for Classic:

Code: Select all

If the target is a mob and defense minus attack rating is 11 or more:
    MissChance = 5% + (TargetLevel*5 - AttackerSkill) * 0.2%

If the target is a mob and defense minus attack rating is 10 or less:
    MissChance = 5% + (TargetLevel*5 - AttackerSkill) * 0.1%

If the target is a mob below level 10:
    MissChance = NormalMissChance * (TargetLevel / 10)

If the target is a player:
    MissChance = 5% + (PlayerDefense - AttackerSkill) * 0.04%
As we can see, a Human with +5 weapon skill would be using the second formula to calculate chance to hit which would mean the chance to miss as a Human rogue is 5% + ( 10 * 0.1 ) which gives a 6% chance to miss. Because rogues get 5% hit from talents, they really only need 1% hit from gear to cap out.

A Night Elf rogue will be using the other formula, which means their chance to miss is 5% + ( 15 * 0.2 ) which is a 8% chance to miss. On top of that, bosses ignore the first 1% hit from gear when you have a larger than 10 difference between your weapon skill and the targets defense skill for an effective hitcap of 9%.

BUT! And there's a but here. All rogues get +5 weapon skill from talents in the combat tree. This means a Human Rogue will be already be above the cap to reduce the penalty from glancing blows without getting any additional gear. A Nightelf Rogue will be at +5 which is the most important breakpoint, and they can get another +4 from Maladath in BWL (Never give this sword to Humans)

Because of this, the difference between race as a Rogue is almost completely negligible. It makes a big impact for Warriors, but not for rogues.

Conclusion: Play whatever you want. Night elves get better stealth than the other races, so that alone is pretty great. It actually lets you skip some mobs in dungeons where other races cannot squeeze through.

Source: https://github.com/magey/classic-warrio ... tack-table

   Adoxe teebling Pippina Cook
Ashenvale
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6 months ago (Beta)
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Holyfrog wrote:
6 months ago
Tec wrote:
6 months ago
It will be hard to compete as a min maxer with humans unless you use dagger. With daggers Nelf is probably one of the better options and opens up for PvP as well due to them having the highest DPS output with daggers, due to the high base agility, it's not huge but it's there.

Glancing blows occur at about 20% of the time versus mobs that are above your level. These attacks only do 75% of their normal damage versus a mob that is 3 levels above you. Bosses are counted as "your level+3"
300 -> 35% reduction
305 -> 15% reduction
310 -> 5% reduction
315 -> 0% reduction
Now in addition you have weapon skill which is said to increase
Your chance to miss decreases by 0.04%.
Your chance to score a critical hit increases by 0.04%.
Your opponent's chance to block your attack decreases by 0.04%.
Your opponent's chance to parry your attack decreases by 0.04%.
Your opponent's chance to dodge your attack decreases by 0.04%.
per weapon skill so from what I gather you get around ~15% base increase in damage on glancing blows, plus a 1% reduction in chance to be dodged/blocked/parried by the mob with the sword spec bonus.

This damage above won't make or break you or your raid, but Humans clearly have a favor over the others and is recommended for end game raiding due to it, in the end it depends on your enjoyment. If you get more enjoyment from playing a Nelf, then yes, do so, but keep in mind min maxer hardcore guilds might not approve if they have a night elf vs a human to get into a raid.

Daggers however, are viable and somewhat competitive with swords a bit into the phases around T2 I think.
Appreciate the effort, but this is incorrect. The glancing cap in Classic is 308 weapon skill. The 0.04% value is also exclusively against players, not mobs in PvE which use a different formula.

I advice listening to @Zanthir instead.
Adoxe wrote:
6 months ago
the difference between the two is even lower on retail with the cap change than it was on private servers
The difference weapon skill makes is actually larger in Classic than private servers due to how it interacts with your chance to hit to a much greater extent, instead of just glancing blows.

Here's the formulas for Classic:

Code: Select all

If the target is a mob and defense minus attack rating is 11 or more:
    MissChance = 5% + (TargetLevel*5 - AttackerSkill) * 0.2%

If the target is a mob and defense minus attack rating is 10 or less:
    MissChance = 5% + (TargetLevel*5 - AttackerSkill) * 0.1%

If the target is a mob below level 10:
    MissChance = NormalMissChance * (TargetLevel / 10)

If the target is a player:
    MissChance = 5% + (PlayerDefense - AttackerSkill) * 0.04%
As we can see, a Human with +5 weapon skill would be using the second formula to calculate chance to hit which would mean the chance to miss as a Human rogue is 5% + ( 10 * 0.1 ) which gives a 6% chance to miss. Because rogues get 5% hit from talents, they really only need 1% hit from gear to cap out.

A Night Elf rogue will be using the other formula, which means their chance to miss is 5% + ( 15 * 0.2 ) which is a 8% chance to miss. On top of that, bosses ignore the first 1% hit from gear when you have a larger than 10 difference between your weapon skill and the targets defense skill for an effective hitcap of 9%.

BUT! And there's a but here. All rogues get +5 weapon skill from talents in the combat tree. This means a Human Rogue will be already be above the cap to reduce the penalty from glancing blows without getting any additional gear. A Nightelf Rogue will be at +5 which is the most important breakpoint, and they can get another +4 from Maladath in BWL (Never give this sword to Humans)

Because of this, the difference between race as a Rogue is almost completely negligible. It makes a big impact for Warriors, but not for rogues.

Conclusion: Play whatever you want. Night elves get better stealth than the other races, so that alone is pretty great. It actually lets you skip some mobs in dungeons where other races cannot squeeze through.

Source: https://github.com/magey/classic-warrio ... tack-table
Thank you for this, absolutely perfect and exactly what I was hoping to find. Earlier replies helped me decide to stick with my initial decision of going Nelf, but this made it 100% certain. :D

   Holyfrog
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